Did Hagler Duck Anyone

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Joeywill, Sep 29, 2023.



  1. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    No.

    If Hagler can somehow be interpreted as a “benchmark” for ducking, then every other boxer ever known has also been a mother ducker.
     
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  2. My dinner with Conteh

    My dinner with Conteh Tending Bepi Ros' grave again Full Member

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    Definitely no hints of a Mallard with Marv. Monzon was stripped of the WBC title for not meeting Valdez in 74 so he'd be more of a ducker if anything- and he was hardly the kinda guy who turned down a good fight.
     
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  3. BELLERS

    BELLERS Active Member Full Member

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    He did. Sibson beat Collins but lost to Lee.
     
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  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    He ducked everybody if their punch was coming from the right angle.

    As for whether he would have denied them that opportunity, I have my doubts.
     
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  5. Anubis

    Anubis Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong JT, but wasn't the sparring mate who inflicted that rib injury his two time adversary Boogaloo Watts2
     
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  6. Anubis

    Anubis Well-Known Member Full Member

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    No. Caveman was a substitute for stablemate Mickey Goodwin, the one white dude in Manny's Kronk stable. That would've been a MUCH better match. Before Hagler - Caveman, a disgusted Howard Cosell went on a televised tirade about how this mismatch was going to be bad for boxing. He was right. Everybody who saw Caveman-LoCicero, however exciting, knew he would crumble the first time Marv whacked him.
     
  7. Anubis

    Anubis Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Twice, Hagler stopped Hamsho, who was the policeman and clearly the world's second best MW when Marv was at his best. The division was loaded, but guys like Czyz, Dwight Davison, Curtis Parker, Frank Fletcher, Benitez, Hard Rock Green and Minter for a rematch with Hagler couldn't even qualify for MW title challenges, and Mustafa was responsible for blocking four of them five times. Going in, Caveman was the one recognized mismatch. Instead of Caveman, Goodwin's hand should've been given time to heal. Mickey finished with a fine 40-2-1 record.
     
  8. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Why would that have been better?

    Mickey Goodwin’s best win was over journeyman Teddy Mann, who was like 20-6 and had lost 4 of his last 5 and would go 7-9 the rest of his career. Goodwin had also been dropped twice and lost a 10-round decision to 2-9 Ted Sanders. Goodwin was a club fighter beating (most) other club fighters he fought — he went on to draw with a 9-7 guy and and get stopped by a 6-6 guy … or maybe it was the other way around.

    If Goodwin even saw a contender across the street, he’d run from him. He never came remotely close to ever fighting one in 42 career fights.
     
  9. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me Full Member

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    Any man Hagler ever ducked he promptly caught with a sweet quick and flush counter left on his way up. :thumbsup:
     
  10. Anubis

    Anubis Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Well, the main reason it could have been better is because it could hardly have been worse. I'm not saying either should have been in the ring with Marv, and he told me and my sister that as well. He said as much to plenty of other people in Boston. He wasn't exactly any kind of recluse during his reign. Like Ali, he was candid about his challengers. Manny Steward had some pull and tried using a sacrificial lamb to scout Hagler for Hearns. Unfortunately for Tommy, Caveman wasn't able to tell him much.

    Manny made a judgement call in favor of Goodwin. At the time, Mickey was 29 (21}-1-0 and wasn't halted by Sanders 12 bouts before Hagler-Lee. Caveman was 21 (20}-2 (1} - 0. He had been halted by the high profile Animal Fletcher and recently exposed as vulnerable against LoCicero, both before a large ESPN audience. Lee was easy to hit, and his dismal performance with inexperienced underdog southpaw Fletcher was particularly foreboding for dealing with Hagler. Goodwin had gone the distance a few times, Caveman only once via MD.

    Teddy Mann was popular on ESPN and it was perceived as a reasonable experience for Goodwin. Mann was a tough customer who withstood some superb heavy hitters like LoCicero, Czyz, Briscoe, and he also took Singletary to the final bell before facing Goodwin. Based on Mann's experiences, it could be argued that this was a better win at the time than LoCicero was for Caveman. I'm going with what was known about Goodwin and Lee at the time of Hagler-Caveman.

    Mickey Goodwin hadn't been seen much, so he hadn't suffered Caveman's negative exposure as an easy and vulnerable target. He hadn't been seen getting dropped by Ted Sanders. Manny probably figured he would last more rounds than Caveman. Marcos Geraldo was seemingly a good one round win on paper for Lee, but Geraldo was known to tank. Coming after Marcos went the full ten with Marv, that is a weird outcome and I don't know anybody who buys that as being on the level. Geraldo took SRLs best shots without flinching, as he did with Hagler immediately before Caveman.
     
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  11. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    You are spot on.
     
  12. My dinner with Conteh

    My dinner with Conteh Tending Bepi Ros' grave again Full Member

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    Methinks there's plenty of Don / Caveman confusion around here.
     
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  13. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    We only have to stretch the timeline just a bit to put together a tournament with Caveman Lee, Don Lee, John Collins and Steve Collins.

    Personally, I think William was closer to a Caveman than Don was Dangerous but that’s a different discussion.
     
  14. THE BLADE 2

    THE BLADE 2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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  15. Olu G. Rotimi

    Olu G. Rotimi The Right Honourable Lord President of the Council Full Member

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    He ducked no one and fought all the contenders. There is a reason he is viewed by many as the greatest Middleweight ever.