Did Hector Camacho really outbox Roberto Duran in 1996?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by MRBILL, Oct 23, 2008.


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  1. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I admit, I am a 'Duran' nutgrabber.... I can't help it..... AND! I was super PISSED back in 1996 when the judges stole the decision from Duran and gave it to Hector Camacho, so a fight (Camacho-Leonard) could be made... I enjoyed the concept of "Camacho Vs. Leonard" back in 1997, but I still contend that Camacho received a gift from the judges in 1996.... Peace...:twisted:

    MR.BILL
     
    MRBILL, Oct 23, 2008
    MRBILL, Oct 23, 2008
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  2. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    This content is protected

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    Stonehands89, Oct 23, 2008
    Stonehands89, Oct 23, 2008
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  3. rekcutnevets

    rekcutnevets Black Sash Full Member

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    I don't know if you meant to say fat or flat in the above statement. I thought Duran did well against Pazienza in their first meeting. I believe Pazienza fought a smarter fight in their rematch.

    I totally agree with what you had to say about Duran vs. Camacho. Duran was the leanest I had seen him in years.
     
    rekcutnevets, Oct 23, 2008
    rekcutnevets, Oct 23, 2008
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  4. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Pazienza himself dismisses these wins. He knows Duran wasn't Duran in there. His honesty reflects well on him there.

    Duran was fat in Pazienza I and II. He did slightly better in I, but he wasn't inspired and he wasn't in shape. Duran was not able to compete against top level guys unless he was under 160. Under 160. Take that to the bank. His body could not hold more than that weight and still be in shape enough to fight hard for 12 rounds. The record bears this out.
     
    Stonehands89, Oct 23, 2008
    Stonehands89, Oct 23, 2008
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  5. arther1045

    arther1045 Member Full Member

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    What I remember about the fight was what great shape Duran was in. I always look for this fight on youtube but nothing yet.
     
    arther1045, Oct 23, 2008
    arther1045, Oct 23, 2008
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  6. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    That photo is from the 2001 rematch.... Duran was 50 and Camacho was a mere 39 yrs old....... It was a good fight for two aged warriors, but no where near as classic as the '96 fight..... Peace...

    MR.BILL:smooch
     
    MRBILL, Oct 23, 2008
    MRBILL, Oct 23, 2008
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  7. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Bollocks.... R.D. did train his ass off for Vinny Paz in the initial 1994 encounter in Las Vegas. The bout was contracted for 165 pounds, due to Paz's request.... Duran couldn't turn down the money and offer and went ahead with the fight, weighing-in at 163 3/4 pounds... Trust me, at age 42, Duran was actually in damn good shape--considering the contracted weight was concerned.... However, I did not like Duran at all at 167 3/4 pounds for the 1995 rematch, which had a contracted weight limit of the full 168 pounds.... Both times Duran appeared naturally trained, while Paz seemingly was juiced....

    YES! In 1996, at 157 pounds, Roberto Duran was in tip-top shape for a 45 year old man with dyed jet-black hair.... Duran once again had back muscles and tone to his body for Hector Camacho in 1996... But by 2001, R.D. was up to 164 pounds and 50 years old, and slower than molasses for the leaner 39 year old Camacho.... Cheers....:rasta

    MR.BILL
     
    MRBILL, Oct 23, 2008
    MRBILL, Oct 23, 2008
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  8. rekcutnevets

    rekcutnevets Black Sash Full Member

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    I did not realize that saying he did well against Pazienza means that I think 165 lbs. was a good weight for Duran.
     
    rekcutnevets, Oct 23, 2008
    rekcutnevets, Oct 23, 2008
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  9. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Duran was not in "damn good shape." That's idle nonsense. If you insist that he was in fighting shape for Paz, you'll only demonstrate that you don't know much about your favorite fighter, so I wouldn't pursue that if I were you. Duran never trained hard at any point for any fight after Hagler unless he cared to. And I'll tell you precisely those fights after Hagler where he actually cared enough to train hard:

    Sims -159
    Barkley -156
    Leonard III -158
    Camacho I -157
    Joppy -159 (though by that point, it didn't matter)

    ...and the lower his weight was, the better he was. Again, his body didn't allow him to be fighting ready north of 160. You can forget the rest of the fights between 1984 and 2001. Duran trained lackadaisically at best for the lot of them -and this was a consistent pattern after ~ 1972; the difference is that when he was young and strong and his metabolism was high it didn't matter as much.

    It's time for you to trust me. If Duran got himself fighting ready for that fight, he would have beaten Paz -even in his 40s. Duran had alot of arrogance about his abilities and often waved off fighters he felt were beneath him. Hell, even No Mas was partly arrogance. He waved off Leonard in New Orleans because he felt not only embarrassed, but also that it was beneath him to suffer a defeat at the hands of that "clown" Leonard. When his trainers (and he effectively had none after Arcel left for good after Benitez) came ringing for roadwork before the Laing fight, the Suero fight, the Fitzgerald fight, the Menefee fight, et al. -he waved them off most of the time. He did just enough to be able to coast through a fight and relied on his craftiness and heavy hands to deal with the novices he faced. He did not fear Pazienza and was not inspired about that fight. He didn't train hard and his flabby abs proved it.
     
    Stonehands89, Oct 23, 2008
    Stonehands89, Oct 23, 2008
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  10. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Look fellas, I know damn well that Roberto Duran was better off at weights just under 160 pounds during the later part of his career... Christ, Duran never saw 154 ever again after he got smoked by Tommy Hearns in 1984... Basically, for the last 17 years of his career, Roberto Duran was resigned to fighting at either Middleweight (160) or Super-Middleweight (168)..... I never really cared for Roberto Duran fighting above 160 pounds.... I know Duran was not in proper shape to fight on the world class level there... But, however, for Vinny Paz in 1994, Duran was pretty solid and toned at 163 3/4 pounds.... Vinny Paz was very bulky and solid / juiced at an even 165 pounds... Anyway, that version of Roberto Duran was old, but in good enough shape to hang tough with the 31 year old juiced up Vinny Paz in Vegas.... Duran was in his best shape since his "Rubber" match with Ray Leonard in 1989..... That was FIVE years earlier... I thought Roberto Duran was HORRIBLE in his 1991 undercard fight with Pat Lawlor... That was gross... Again, Duran was in-shape for a 42 year old man for Vinny Paz in 1994, and Duran came to fight and beat Vinny Paz, as well... But, he ran outta gas after 8 or 9 rds., and then finished poorly... Still, Paz was pretty sliced and diced, and dripping blood after 12 rds; while Duran just looked tired / gased out...

    NOW! Overall... Roberto Duran was in his best condition of the 90s decade for his 1996 fight with Hector Camacho. The 157 pounds that Duran carried into the ring was the BEST he could do for a fighter age 45.... Roberto Duran gave Camacho a good going over in that PPV fight.... I was livid when the judges butt-reamed Duran on the cards...:bbb

    MR.BILL

    EXTRA:

    Considering that Roberto Duran began training for his 1990s comeback in the Spring of 1992 weighing over 200 + pounds and looking like a 41 year old slob, the weights of 164, 165, 166 & 167 pounds were really not all that bad when you consider what he looks and weighs during his retirements / vacations..... I believe Duran was 165 for his 1992 bout with Tony Biglen... Duran got good reviews for a guy over 40 and fighting as a Super-Middle......
     
    MRBILL, Oct 23, 2008
    MRBILL, Oct 23, 2008
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  11. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Even if Duran was in "his best shape since Leonard III" -it doesn't mean he was in fighting shape. Because he wasn't...

    Duran was in shape for a 42 year old man. He was not in shape for a 42 year old fighter. He was in spectacular shape for a 45 year old civilian and was infighting shape when he fought Camacho in '96.

    --because he wasn't in fighting shape.

    Tony Biglen. Duran didn't give a damn about the Tony Biglen fight. And of course coming in at 165 is better than coming straight in without so much of a sit-up or a sauna after 5 months of buffets and beer and a belly that looked like a witch's brew. "Wasn't that bad" -isn't fighting shape!

    Duran didn't feel as though he had to train hard to fight Biglen and LeBlanc. He only need to throw a few good punches at poor Terry Thomas to snap his nose. And he was right! His skill and experience would carry him through against these guys. Duran didn't even think he had to train like a freak to fight Hearns because he thought Hearns was a chicken after his Leonard loss. And he took Vinnie lightly too -twice! So he did minimum training to look half ready. But don't confuse these poor tendencies of his with his being well-trained and fighting ready... Because he wasn't. And when he made this mistake against guys more serious than friggin Ariel Cruz, he paid for it with sometimes embarrassing losses.
     
    Stonehands89, Oct 23, 2008
    Stonehands89, Oct 23, 2008
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  12. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Dude... I hear you, but I ain't feeling you.... 40 + year old fighters can't whip themselves into peak shape as if they were 26 years old again... 42 year old fighters need to take it easy as well as train hard during camp... Roberto Duran at age 42, had several "Warm-Up" fights in 1992 / '93 prior to meeting Vinny Paz in June of 1994. Considering that team Duran agreed to fight Vinny Paz in the neighborhood of 165 pounds, I think and feel that Duran was in the best shape he could've been in under the circumstances involving the contracted weight limit of 165 pounds... Roberto Duran was in good fighting shape for a dude 42 years old and fighting in the mid 160s... Christ, Roberto Duran was 164 pounds just three months prior to the 'Paz' fight when he KO'd and broke the nose of human tomato can Terry Thomas in about four rds on the USA network... I know 161 to 168 is NOT peak or vintage Roberto Duran fighting weight, but to say he was in poor shape or no shape at all is utterly insane.... Lotsa' 42 year olds would love to have the chance to spend time training like Roberto Duran did in 1992, '93 & '94 instead of spending eight hours a day slaving for sombodies goddamn company in order to the bills, etc.... That's all I'm saying....:hat

    MR.BILL

    EXTRA:

    Also, crazy as it seems, but hardly anybody ever comes in light these days when a fight is contracted for a maximum weight of 165 pounds... Team Duran knew that Paz was bulky and gonna come in near or at the weight limit of 165..... I'm not sure that Duran would've benefited any better had he weighed 158 and gave up SEVEN pounds to the newfound muscular Vinny Paz.?.? I think Team Duran initially felt 162 to 163 would be best for Roberto at that time... Just a thought...
     
    MRBILL, Oct 23, 2008
    MRBILL, Oct 23, 2008
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  13. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Not to rag, but Duran did NOT look extremely fit and solid at 159 pounds for his bout with Robbie Sims... Sure, Duran was down in weight from his two aftermath 'Hearns' fights in '86 when he fought in South America weighing in the mid 160s to prepare for Sims, but Duran looked lethargic after round 7 against Sims and had to suck-up one last burst in about the 9th round to rock Sims and still just fall short for a loss.... I wanted Duran to get the nod, but he needed more time to prepare for Robbie Sims....

    MR.BILL

    P.S.

    Duran was inactive in 1985 and I'm sure he was a PIG in that year.... Easily over 200 pounds...
     
    MRBILL, Oct 23, 2008
    MRBILL, Oct 23, 2008
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  14. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Stones,

    Considering that Duran was coming back in 1992 from an embarrassing TKO loss to Pat Lawlor in March of '91, I think its safe to assume that while Tony Biglen was NOT a world beater, Duran still trained and took the bout seriously in Sept. of 1992.... Another loss for Duran at that time would've been crucial; Duran had to beat Biglen regardless of Tony Biglen's reputation... Cheers...:hi:

    MR.BILL
     
    MRBILL, Oct 23, 2008
    MRBILL, Oct 23, 2008
    #14
  15. arther1045

    arther1045 Member Full Member

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    arther1045, Oct 23, 2008
    arther1045, Oct 23, 2008
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