Did Holmes duck Greg Page?

Page was erratic and not always motivated but when he was in shape he was fast, moved well, took a good punch and had a fast sneaky right hand...Larry gave up a title not to fight him and titles are money so lets not just dismiss it. I know Page lost a lot of fights in non-condition but when he trained he was not a joke and an in shape Page was faster than Witherspoon and hit just as hard or harder...thing with Page is he was lazier than Riddick Bowe but he was a threat to Larry, why else give up a title

 

A true champ is concerned with more than just money.

 

You've very conveniently neglected to mention Pages impressive victory over the WBC number 1 contender Renaldo Snipes which made him Holmes mandatory. Of course most of us know that Holmes relinguished his long held WBC title in order not to fight Page citing $2.5 million not being enough as the reason.

Whether it comes down to not enough money and hatred of Don King or not the fact is Holmes gave up his title in order to avoid fighting Page. This is indisputable.

You've just 100% aligned with the biggest knock on Larry Holmes and the reason many rank him lower top 10 if at all top 10.

Up to and including the Cooney (I'd give Cobb too) fight Holmes reign and choices were quite good. Post Cooney he was a disgrace to the title.

Beside the utterly woeful level of opponent he blatantly stated he'd not give Witherspoon a rematch after the fledgling shocked all and near beat him. He also avoided fighting the streaking Pinklon Thomas (title holder) at a time when the people were clamouring for him to show who the true champ was.

As soon as he bailed on fighting Page he admitted to the world (the public can go to hell) he'd fight whoever he felt like and would be taking the easy run home he thought he deserved. The chip on his shoulder and intense mistrust of the public and media were frightening. This was muchly a result of following the incredibly popular and talented Ali which made it hard for him to win the public's respect, much less adulation. The funny thing is by at the end of his reign the public had actually come to appreciate him.

 

The other factor in a lot of this is the Mike Spinks bout. He was a carefully selected opponent as well and coming off a flat performance himself. He was supposed to be an easy defense for Holmes. But he sure had a pedigree and was a guy with an awful lot more experience than other Holmes opponents. And that extra experience and a guy who had fought championship rounds before was a big big factor.

The irony in a lot of this was Holmes gives zero rematches and as soon as he drops a fight, boom an immediate rematch.

 

those 80's guys not named holmes or tyson were all a funny case

guys like page and dokes and tubbs would all look tremendous when winning the belt

then typically would be out of shape and flat in their first defense and be one and done

think of a guy like Witherspoon good boxer at times got a title

then in his first defense he came out vs Smith with no sweat no bounce no effort he was smashed early vs a guy who probably was not on his level

the 80's heavys were so inconsistent

sure on a good night page would have been interesting but page only had a few good nights

 

Holmes ducked Page.
Holmes openly ducked strong risky seasoned opponents from 1982 or 1983 onwards, saying he wouldn't fight them for less that 10 or 15 million etc, (I think he put a price of 25 mill on a Cooney rematch !), said he wouldn't fight Witherspoon or Weaver either, said he was looking for easy prey, said he'd paid his dues.

He did agree to fight Coetzee in 1984 though, for a promise of 8 or 10 mill or something, which fell through.

 

Good post. :good

I thought fighting the very inexperienced Marvis Frazier, as a Champion was ridiculous, & the WBC rightfully stripped him, but sadly the IBF pulled a title out of it's arse & handed it to him. :nut

 

As much as I've always respected Joe Frazier,it was madness to let his son Marvis face Holmes. After all,Frazier mini-me's most accomplished opponent up to that point was Joe Bugner,five months prior. A fat,old version. Bugner in his prime would have beaten Marvis.
After Bugner,Frazier senior should have put his boy in with a leading contender before going for the title.

 

Exactly, with more experience in '85/'86, Marvis went on to beat Tillis, Ribalta & Bonecrusher, but at only 10-0 in '83 with one named win over Shot Bugner, i doubt he'd do well against the Ring Mag top 10 of '83...

1. Gerrie Coetzee
2. Greg Page
3. Michael Dokes
4. Pinklon Thomas
5. Tim Witherspoon
6. Mike Weaver
7. David Bey
8. John Tate
9. Trevor Berbick
10. Frank Bruno

 

and yet an older, fatter version of joe bugner would also beat greg page!!

and page presumably!!

 

It's a baffling thing about just what "in shape" meant with respect to Greg. He came in at 220 for Berbick and lost badly. He came in at 220 for Orlin Norris when 30 years of age, and got schooled. Page was under 225 when Bey dethroned him for the USBA Title in Greg's eighth defense. (That remains a USBA HW record by the way.) He was still just 28 years old when he lost a UD to senile Joe Bugner. Mark Wills weirdly stopped him a second time when a 31 year old Page came in at 218 for their 1990 rematch. For Chaplin I, he came in at 227 and looked awful. (Again, I thought he lost both matches to Chaplin.) He was 228 when Ruddock stopped him in eight. He had eight defeats prior to turning 30.

The only two complete bouts I saw where I felt he looked really good at a "reasonable" (under 230) weight were at 227 for Snipes, and 224 for Marty Monroe. I've wondered if he was weakened by trying to come in at the lower weights. He claimed to come from a family of large relatives.

He came in at nearly 237 for his defining knockout of Coetzee, but Gerrie pissed him off by publicly calling him jerk. During their match, Greg kept taunting "Here's another one from the jerk!" before belting Coetzee. He weighed 255 when he decked and stopped Witherspoon in their 1999 rematch.

Added weight may well have increased his power. I don't think weight was the issue for him that it was for Mathis, Sr. (who did seem to perform much better at lower weights). What Greg really needed was a master motivator, somebody like a Tony Robbins to really light a fire under him (like Coetzee so foolishly did) and keep it burning bright. And the very best way for him to get to Holmes was through future benefactor Cooney. (I think Greg would have knocked Gerry out impressively, if well focused. He was capable of dealing with Cooney's kind of power, as he showed with Coetzee, Witherspoon, Bonecrusher, Broad, Larry Frazier [who nearly got a shot at Holmes between Snipes and Cooney] and others. He could take a punch, and get up to win, climbing off the deck a number of times to take the match.) I don't think it was weight and conditioning which held him back, but motivation. If he was properly roused, I don't believe it would have mattered if he was 215 or 255 (and he produced good knockout wins at both weights).

 

Not a deliberate omission, just an oversight on my part, in the process of addressing the bigger picture, but:

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There's one thing guaranteed to bring the venerable JT back to classic...

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:yep

 

True, Its funny but sometimes weight is not an indication of condition, as we know muscle weighs more than fat and he was quick and strong vs Coetzee. Roberto Duran for fight 2 with Leonard was less muscled than fight 1 but he was not in the same condition, Joe Frazier weighed more for fight 2 and 3 vs Ali but you could see he looked more muscled in FOTC....I think a fighter has to stay in condition to get in condition...The Klitschko's are good examples of this also Evander Holyfield you never see him get too heavy and there are others....Page had his problems outside the ring and that may have added to his conditioning problems

 

Good to see you back JT1.