Did Hopkins duck Calzaghe in 2002?

general zod · Sep 4, 2012

Part I

This content is protected

``The money they're talking, the payper-view numbers they're talking, man, I'd be a fool not to go over there,'' said Hopkins. ``The only way I won't go to Wales is if they tell me the ring will be a triangle.''
-Hopkins, 2002

HBO had screened 5 of Hopkins title defenses but they decided to turn down his fight against Morrade Hakker, deeming it unsuitable. King would then take the fight to Showtime who were interested in buying it but only under the condition that Hopkins enter into a three fight deal involving fights with Joe Calzaghe and Harry Simon.

By Mike Nosky: Less than a week after undisputed middleweight king Bernard Hopkins (pictured) and Showtime appeared all but locked into a three fight contract that would have included fights with WBO champions Joe Calzaghe (super-middle) and Harry Simon (middle),
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noskys-nuggets-hopkins-backed-into-corner.htm

Part II

According to Jay Larkin this is what happened when the Calzaghe fight was being discussed:

Jay Larkin

"A teleconference was set up in my office in New York for July 30th, 2002, and on the call was myself, Don King who was in the room, Frank ****** and Bernard Hopkins' lawyer, Arnold Joseph. Along with Arnold was a woman named Linda Carter, who was there on behalf of Bernard. We asked Arnold if Bernard wanted to fight Joe Calzaghe and we asked him how much money would he want if he did. The response we got was $3million and the fight would have to take place in the United States. After a little scratching of the head, we said 'Okay, done.' Frank ****** agreed on the spot, Don King agreed and we agreed so as far as we were concerned all parties were singing off the one hymm sheet. Arnold excused himself with Linda and I can only assume it was to call Bernard. Either that day or the next day, they came with a new demand: $6million, double the sum that had been agreed, the deal blew up.....he had then and still has no desire to fight Joe Calzaghe, that much is pretty clear.

Joe gets criticised sometimes for not having fought the big-name Americans, but in this case the fault has never rested with him."
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- Jay Larkin, then Showtime TV Network's Senior Vice-President of Sports and Event Programming.

Source: Joe Calzaghe's autobiography, 2007

PART III

There are a number of problems with this article:

Problem 1:
Was the fight really going to be held in America?

According to Hopkins the fight was going to be in Wales:

The Executioner' had no problems with boxing away from home.

``The money they're talking, the payper-view numbers they're talking, man, I'd be a fool not to go over there,'' said Hopkins. ``The only way I won't go to Wales is if they tell me the ring will be a triangle.''

But now Showtime have withdrawn their offer - said to be $10.5m for the three fights - and Hopkins is left in limbo.
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Boxing +Calzaghe+v+Hopkins+hits+a+snag.

Calzaghe refused to fight in America and had pulled out of every attempt ****** had made to get him to fight over there including fights on HBO on Hamed and Delahoya undercards.

Problem 2:
How much money was really on the table :
According to respected sports writer, Thomas Hauser Showtime's annual boxing budget is 20m, with Showtime paying at most 2m for any given fight.

By way of comparison, Showtimes annual boxing budget is slightly more than $20,000,000.
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HBO has all of the power; and the guys there dont seem to get it, says one veteran of the television wars. They have no real competition, and they keep paying these insane license fees. If the most that Showtime will pay for a fight is $2,000,000, why does HBO pay $4,000,000?

Showtime paid a total of $4,200,000 for all three Vasquez-Marquez encounters. HBO frequently pays an amount in that neighborhood for one fight.
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http://www.secondsout.com/columns/thomas-hauser/hbo-2008

According to Jay Larkin the most he would of paid for Hopkins-Daniels would be 500k.

Here, the thoughts of Showtime's Jay Larkin are instructive. "No one came to us with the fight," says Larkin. "If they had, we would have been interested, but only at the right price. As a stand-alone one-off fight, $500,000 is a lot closer to reality for Hopkins-Daniels than $3,500,000."
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The 96-4 Purse Split

Was 10.5m really on the table for Hopkins to fight three relatively unknown fighters or did they tell him that he might POTENTIALLY end up making that amount?

Problem 3:
What were the terms of the agreement

Hopkins-Showtime deal off
By Dan Rafael, USA TODAY
A three-fight contract offer aimed at bringing undisputed middleweight champ Bernard Hopkins from HBO to rival Showtime beginning with an Aug. 17 bout unraveled Tuesday.

The Showtime deal, worth about $10.5 million, blew up when Hopkins realized the money offered was not all for him. He would also have to pay King, which he didn't want to do, and Showtime was unwilling to increase the offer, which included more than $2 million for a mandatory defense vs. virtually unknown Morrade Hakkar next month
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2002-07-30-hopkins_x.htm

Reportedly, Hopkins was to receive around $2 million for the Hakkar fight. The middleweight champion apparently believed that amount was for him. However, he was only recently made aware that the $2 million was not his take but that he would have to pay his promoter, Don King, and Hakkar out of that money.

This was deemed unsatisfactory by Hopkins and Showtime reportedly pulled the deal off the table.
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noskys-nuggets-hopkins-backed-into-corner.htm

I think we can safely assume that the 3m for Calzaghe would of also been subject to such terms as well, with Hopkins having to split it with King and Calzaghe. Hopkins most likely would of got around 1.4-1.5m for the fight, which would explain why Hopkins would insist on more money and Showtime would then pull the deal.

Problem 4:
Is Jay Larkin a reliable source?
Jay Larkin would get sacked from Showtime after the Calzaghe-Lacy fight he would then get hired by waaren to be Calzaghes representive in America. In fact Larkin was the one who brokered the deal to get Calzaghe onto HBo. So is Larkin really the most objective source? I think not.

The irony of the deal: Former Showtime chief boxing executive Jay Larkin, fired by the network last fall after more than 20 years, is the one responsible for delivering Calzaghe to HBO on behalf of promoter Frank ******, a close associate from his days at Showtime.
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http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=2421092

King, the peoples champion, was able to save the day by selling the Hakkar fight back to HBO as part of a package deal:

Yes, Don King did make Hopkins-Hakkar as part of a package deal with the heavyweight rematch featuring David Tua and Hasim Rahman but did they really need Tua-Rahman II that badly?
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363-another-mis-mandatory.htm

And Hopkins would then continue his relationship with HBO

poll to come

The Mangler · Sep 4, 2012

No.

Bhop was defendin the undisputed MW title. There was no onus on him to go up in weight to chase Calz, let alone go overseas to do it.

If they were in the same division at the time, there'd be more room for discussion.

knockout artist · Sep 4, 2012

Another thread about Calzaghe? :huh

Duck is a strong word, considering Hopkins was never mandated to face Joe C, and was in the division below. However, if anyone is to blame for the fight not happening, it's Hopkins

NEWBRIDGE'S WBO world super-middleweight king Joe Calzaghe has moved a step closer towards a dream showdown with American great Bernard Hopkins.

Undisputed world middleweight champion Hopkins has spoken of his desire to fight unbeaten Calzaghe and also WBO middleweight champion Harry Simon in an interview with boxing website Maxboxing.com.

Hopkins stated: "Right now I'm negotiating along with Don King and Jay Larkin of Showtime. Who we spoke to and we're going to talk to him about two fights, maybe my mandatory too, which makes it a three-fight deal.

"It would be the mandatory, Harry Simon and Joe Calzaghe. While Calzaghe fights for that other super-middleweight title, I'll wait for that and knock off Simon after the mandatory and fight the WBO title."

Calzaghe's promoter Frank ****** is looking to stage the mega-showdown at the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff in front of 40,000 fans and has had numerous talks with Hopkins promoter Don King to make the fight happen.

He said: "I'm delighted that Hopkins has stated that he wants to fight Joe. This is the fight that I have been working on with Don King to secure for Joe. It's a real fight and the winner can claim that he is the real pound-for-pound best in the world. Hopkins statements are a real positive sign and I hope that the fight can be confirmed shortly providing terms and conditions can be agreed with King," said ******.

TV giants Showtime have broadcast all of Calzaghe's fights in the US and is relishing the prospect of a Calzaghe/Hopkins showdown.
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http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/ar...e/4616976.Hopkins_names_Calzaghe_on_hit_list/

late 2002 (declining Calzaghe fight, to stalking Trinidad for a rematch)

Hopkins, who flew down to San Juan last week in Don King's private jet specifically to see Trinidad, looked positively disappointed Saturday night prior to the main event after Trinidad was a no-show for a short Showtime-produced video montage in his honor.

Hopkins, who holds all the alphabet-soup titles at middleweight, paced inside the ring, and tried to enlist the support of the fans present.

"I want you all to write and e-mail Papa Trinidad [Felix Sr.] to make this fight happen," said Hopkins, who KOed Trinidad last September and handed the Puerto Rican champ his first loss in 40 starts.

"Tell Papa Trinidad to make the fight happen," Hopkins told the crowd of about 5,000. "I'm going to give him an opportunity to redeem himself whenever he wants but it's gotta be soon."

Don King, sounding as desperate as Hopkins, joined in the plea.

"Papa we need you. Papa please give Tito one last chance. Do it for Puerto Rico. Bernard has signed, let Tito sign too. We don't have to look for Bernard he's right here. Everything is ready for you guys."

Trinidad Sr., however, reiterated again that it will never happen.

"Tito's not coming out of retirement. That's not going to happen, no matter how much money he offers," said Trinidad Sr.

"The rematch is not going to happen," Trinidad Sr. told Hopkins after the fights. "You proved you're the super champion and the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world. We wish you the best. We'll never look back. We have to be firm and not let Puerto Rico down."

The fight, by the way, took a backseat to the Don King-Bernard Hopkins-Roy Jones Jr. drama going on on the sidelines (Hopkins was also at the fight to beg Roy Jones Jr. to fight him).

According to both King and Hopkins, the two worked out an agreement for Hopkins' next fight, no small accomplishment considering Hopkins spurned a $10.5 million three-fight Showtime offer made earlier this year that would have sent him into the ring to fight Morrade Hakkar, Joe Calzaghe and Harry Simon.

"He's desperate for a fight and he needs to fight me because he messed up his deal with Showtime," Jones Jr. said in the dressing room prior to Saturday's main event.

"The hard part of the job is over now that Hopkins set up a deal with Don King. Now it's just a matter of having to listen to Bernard Hopkins talk ****."

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http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2002/vol6n35/PRSportsBeat0635-en.html

"We have to get Joe to America and the right fight is Bernard Hopkins," said Showtime boxing chief Jay Larkin.

"Hopkins turned down a lot of money from us to fight Calzaghe last year, but after what Joe did to Mitchell we can up the ante and offer more."

Larkin is determined to push for the Hopkins fight, but acknowledges that the man known as 'The Executioner,' is not the easiest fighter to negotiate with.

"With Bernard you never know, he comes to us from outer space sometimes," Larkin added.

"I want a big fight in the States and Hopkins is who I'm looking for," said Calzaghe.

"I'm just looking forward to bashing somebody else up - and I don't want to wait another six months for that to happen."

Hopkins turned down an offer of $3m to face Calzaghe last year, and since his last significant fight - against Felix Trinidad in 2001 - his financial demands have blown lucrative bouts with Roy Jones Jr and James Toney

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/3030004.stm

Joe calzaghe's proposed super-fight showdown with Bernard Hopkins has been declared a 'dead issue'.

Calzaghe's promoter Frank ****** has finally run out of patience with the stalling Hopkins following the American's latest refusal of a US$2.5m offer to face the unbeaten Welshman.

****** made the offer to Hopkins' lawyer Joseph Arnold and they made it abundantly clear Hopkins is not interested in tackling the WBO super-middleweight king

'A fight between Joe and Hopkins is now a dead issue,' said ******, who has been frustrated in his search to find the Welshman a so-called career-defining fight.

'An offer was made to Hopkins for US$2.5m to face Joe and that was rejected.

'It is very clear for all to see that despite numerous offers in the past, Hopkins does not want to fight against Joe.

'His contract with Don King has expired so there were no obstacles in making the fight.'

'I'm not wasting any more of my breath talking about Hopkins,' said Calzaghe, who might make the move up to the light-heavyweight division after tackling Mkrtchian.

'That's the end of the matter. My career does not revolve around Hopkins and there are much bigger challenges for me out there.

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http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Calzaghe+showdown+with+Hopkins+off,+says+******.-a0113144541

The original plan cooked up by Team Calzaghe was for Joe and Bernard to meet next March for a £10million showdown, according to the Sunday Mirror, but the never-at-a-loss-for-words Hopkins put a kibosh on those plans, not temporarily, but once and for all.

"Calzaghe is a good fighter but right now it would be a backward step for me," Hopkins said. "It is not a big enough fight right now and I need a big fight to get motivated. A fight against Maskaev would be exactly the type of fight I need."

Calzaghe has heard the news and isn't taking it lying down.

"Hopkins, to be honest, is just one of the names on a long list," he said. "[But] it's funny how the so-called big names in American boxing always have a handy reason not to fight me."
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http://stage.thesweetscience.com/news/articles/4526-hopkinscalzaghe-not-so-fast

These links were originally posted by Fighting Pride

Meanwhile, Hopkins has turned down an offer of $6,000,000 plus a percentage of profits to fight Roy Jones on HBO Pay-Per-View and a three fight multimillion-dollar package from Showtime for bouts against Hakkar, Joe Calzaghe, and Harry Simon. That led King to declare recently, "Bernard Hopkins is like a man who won the lottery and then waited to cash his ticket until after it expired."
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http://www.secondsout.com/columns/thomas-hauser/dibella-v-hopkins1

HerolGee · Sep 4, 2012

I doubt Calzaghe would have took the fight even if it was scheduled to go ahead. He tended to fake injuries when he found out he was fighting someone who seemed tough.

lufcrazy · Sep 4, 2012

Oh dear.

These two actually fought, whilst ranked 3rd and 4th p4p. Whilst SMW and LHW champion. When the fight was biggest, it happened.

So neither ducked the other, the fact they fought should give you a hint there.

iceferg · Sep 4, 2012

Showtime only had a $2m budget per fight? Funny how they were joint broadcasters for Lewis-Tyson. Can't imagine that came cheap.

iceferg · Sep 4, 2012

I agree with lufcrazy. They fought, when both were top p4p fighters. Hopkins still had a few years left as LHW number 1. Hardly shot like they say.

Arcane · Sep 4, 2012

Great thread, someone should post a link to it on Nathan Celeverly's twitter account so he can educate himself.

Arcane · Sep 4, 2012

Also exactly what had a 2002 Calzaghe achieved that would make Hopkins want to duck him?

whopperdong · Sep 4, 2012

Why was calzahge calling out a mw? Wat a wanker.

Arcane · Sep 4, 2012

whopperdong said: ↑

Why was calzahge calling out a mw? Wat a wanker.
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Calzaghe didn't call out anybody, his promoter did all the calling out then cooked up half baked stories to feed the world to make it look like fighters were ducking Cazlaghe.

Caelum · Sep 4, 2012

Hopkins could have moved up to face Calzaghe like Calzaghe could have moved up to face Jones...all during their prime years. it didn't happen. That's boxing. That's the business.

You also have to remember, besides the title defense record he was going after (and I can't remember which fight/year he got it)...but you never know if he was really waiting for that big payday and popularity boost against O$car since Tito came up after him as well.

Andy McNab · Sep 4, 2012

Nah, he fought Joe when the money made sense.

klion22 · Sep 4, 2012

Hopkins was always a pain to work with. It was more about money than him actually ducking Calzaghe. That's why he didn't fight Jones at around the same time. 60/40 was a fair offer but Hopkins rejected it. Even the op's post is littered with suggestions that this was the case. Hopkins has been fighting the system his whole life.

HoldMyBeer · Sep 4, 2012

people who are voting 'yes' and dont think calzaghe deserves a large slice of the blame for the fight not being made at that time are dreaming

the fight was made easily once hopkins had been dethroned several years later - and if you can understand the reason why it was made then, but not at all in 2002 - then you'll realise it was joe's fight to make

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