Did Jack Johnson Deserve A Title Shot From 1902-1904?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mcvey, Oct 20, 2011.


  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    In the wake of the thread concerning Gun Boat Smith's credibility as a challenger,which I think has been established ,albeit ,it was a narrow window in which he stood as a contender.
    What do posters think of Johnson's credibility as a challenger from 1902 ,till the end of 1904?
    Jim Jeffries was Champ during this period and in it he defended his title 3 times, respectable for the times really.
    His opponents were.
    A nigh on 40 year old man who had been retired for 2 years,a man he had allready beaten by ko.
    A 36years old man who had been retired for 3 years, again a man he had allready kod.
    And Jack Munroe who was 8-3-2.
    Munroe's claims for a title match were that in an exhibition he had supposedly knocked the champion down, it appears Jeffries did hit the floor but as a result of being off balance ,and not from any punch. Munroe had fought 2 men who had any pretensions to class, but both of them were absolutely shot.
    Peter Maher was 35 years old ,and an alcoholic, he had won just 1 of his last 6 fights ,that over the execrable Joe Grim 3-2-1.
    Maher had been kod in 3 of his last 6 fights.
    Munroe's other" name "victim was the totally wrecked Tom Sharkey ,he had been retired for 2 years ,had won just 1 of his last 6 fights and been kod in his last one,those are Munroe's credentials for a title challenge.
    Meanwhile ,from 1902, unitl the end of 1904 ,[which coincided with Jeffries last fight as Champion,though he sat on the title for a further year].
    Jack Johnson met the following.

    1904
    Denver Ed Martin kod in 2 rds,after which the promoter offered Jeffries a $15,000 guarantee to defend against Johnson.
    Frank Childs
    Sam McVey
    Black Bill & Morris Harris [same night]
    Sandy Ferguson [ well, a fella's got to eat]
    Sandy Ferguson

    1903
    Sam McVey
    Sandy Ferguson
    Joe Butler
    Sandy Ferguson
    Sam McVey
    Denver Ed Martin


    1902
    Fred Russell
    George Gardner
    Frank Childs [for coloured title]
    Hank Griffin
    Jack Jeffries
    Joe Kennedy
    All "names ", none beat him.
    That's a 2 year span
    19 fights without defeat.

    Jim Jeffries complained to a reporter that he lost money defending his title against Munroe and, stated he would not, "engage in another farce" but would rather retire.


    Whether Johnson could have beaten Jeffries at this stage of their respective careers is not the point ,the point is, given his form over the 2 years, did he deserve the opportunity to try?
    If Munroe and , two men coming out of a 2 years retirement ,and a 3 years retirement deserved title shots, I think Johnson surely did.
    What say you?
     
  2. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    On paper, it would seem so. Jeff was all about making money, for sure. One gets the feeling he was not truly in love with the sport but was out to make a fortune. I have seen a couple quotes from Jeff about Johnson at this time and he was supposedly not impressed. Hopefully, we can get Pollack's input.

    Going out on a limb, I say Jeffries would win at this time but not by 1908.
     
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    There would have been nothing at all wrong with his challenging for the title, not at all. But he didn't have the issue forced either.
     
  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I personaly think that he had done enough to force the issue.

    He was beating thye fighters who were advocated as being the best challengers for Jeffries title, somtimes multiple times.
     
  5. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I like to make the distinction between deserving and entitled, he deserved a shot but wasn't necessarily entitled to it. Had he beaten Hart he would be entitled ie by right he should have had a title fight but had he got one he would not be undeserving of it unlike Monroe or Finnegan.
     
  6. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I believe he did deserve one but understand why he never got one.
     
  7. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I actualy think that he had done enough to entitle him to a shot, before he fought Hart.

    Some Johnson suporters get round the Hart fight by saying that Johnson was robbed. I don't think that Johnson was robbed, but I think that he should never have needed to fight Hart in the first place.

    I think that before the Hart fight, there had been a number of contenders seen as the potential heirs (in ways forgotten today), and Johnson had rounded them all up.
     
  8. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    A reasonable take on it I feel.
    Personally I think Johnson would have beaten Fitz ,and Corbett without any trouble at that stage of their careers,and he played with Munroe.So yes, I think Johnson DID deserve a ttile shot between 1902 and 04.
     
  9. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Jeffries was the superior fighter up to 1904 at least ,I would hazard,a guess, but that isn't really the crux of the argument for Jack receiving a title shot. Jeffries fight with Munroe was so dissapointing to Jeffries in the $$$ department that he fought no more ,until his abortive comeback.
     
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Just prior to the Hart/Johnson fight, Jeffries stated publicly that, in the event of a Johnson victory,he would not fight Johnson .
     
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Before Corbett II:
    "Challenges were read from Jack Monroe and Jack Johnson, the coloured heavyweight. Monroe's challenge was greeted with jeers, but Johnson's received applause. Then Jeffries turned to Delaney and said he would not fight a coloured man but was ready to meet Monroe."
    - San Francisco Call.
     
  12. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Its there in black and white.:lol:
     
  13. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I wonder how Jeffries would have felt about besmirching his lillywhite skin by coming into bodily contact with a coloured fighter, if Johnson had the ability of Munroe and vice versa?
     
  14. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    In hindsight, if Jeff cared about his legacy, he should have tried to take care of Johnson as early as possible.
     
  15. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I have come out more in favour of Johnson's claim than most here, and that is based on my interpretation of the contemporary standing of the contenders he beat.

    The heavyweight division was seen as something of a grab bag, but there seems to have been significant momentum building behind a few key contenders. Mainly Martin, McVea and Ferguson.

    Based on Johnsons back to back dominations of these fighters, I cannot see his title claim as being anything other than outstanding.