Did jack Johnson draw a color line himself?

The short answer is no.

He simply drew the Langford line and the money line.

There are three scenarios in it when a champion fails to meet tha top balck challenger:

A. Champion has a stance that he will not meet a black contender in principle.

B. Champion wishes to avoid a dangerous challenger who happens to be black.

C. Champion either has no viable black contender, or is unable to reach suitable terms with one.

I would define champions who took position A as having drawn the colour line, while I would judge Johnson to be a mixture of B and C.

 

As the two posts above mine have said Johnson , as he began to decline through his lifestyle ,and lack of training, did not pursue a fight with Langford, who had improved since his one sided thrashing in 1906. Langford would have been his most dangerous challenger,and to beat him,he would have needed to be in the sort of shape he had not been since he fought Jeffries in 1910.
Lets be clear Johnson many times stated in print he would defend against anybody who could come up with his price ,$30,000, the amount Burns received for defending against him back in 1908.

Johnson signed at least three times to fight Jeannette, but the fight was vetoed by the authorities.

Johnson stated he would fight Langford at the NSC in London, but their derisory offer of £3000 meant the fight never happened there.

Curley and Coffroth ,the two leading promoters in the US at the time, both stated," two coloured fighters do not draw".
There are newspaper articles saying there were big offers for Johnson to fight Langford in France, and Australia.
How serious they were is a moot point .

On December the 19th 1913, Johnson defended his title against Battling Jim Johnson, the next day Langford fought Jeannette also in Paris.
How much did Langford get for the fight?

The most vociferous haters of Jack Johnson say Langford is a certainty to have beaten Johnson after 1910 .
I disagree.The heaviest weight we have for Langford for 1910 is 170lbs in Sept when he beat Jeannette.

In April of that year he scaled 166lbs for a fight with Jim Barry.

.At the beginning of 1910 Langford lost to Fireman Jim Flynn, a man Johnson toyed with twice.

I can't see Langford with a realistic chance of beating Johnson in 1910.

1911 .In April ,scaling 161lbs Langford drew with Mcvey,a man Johnson thrashed three times.
In August weighing 180lbs Langford stopped Jack O Brien, haters of Johnson say O Brien was past his best when he managed a draw with Johnson over 6 rds, well that was in 1909 two years earlier, I doubt he had improved.
In September weighing 178 Langford beat Joe Jeannette great result.

December, scaling 170 Langford lost to McVey, not so great.

1913 Langford drew with McVey, and Colin Bell .
September Langford scaled 185lbs for John Lester Johnson.
Weighing 199.5 Langfrod drew with Jeannette
November Langford lost to Gun Boat Smith some thought he deserved the win.
Clay Moyle undoubtedly has more insight into this fight.


Langford rounded out 1913 by beating Jeannette, Sam weighed 185.75 .

1914 May. Langford drew with the emerging Harry Wills ,Langford weighed 187lbs

August, Langford drew with Battling Jim Johnson.

October Langford drew with Jeannette.

Langford was 199.5lbs.

My tortuous point is Langford's fluctuations in weight,and his unpredictable results indicate that.
1. He himself was not guaranteed to be in the kind of shape needed to challenge Johnson for his title.
2. He was no certainty to win that title, if given the opportunity.
Did Johnson draw the colour line? No imo, I believe he drew the $$$$ line.

 

McVey,
Thanks for this interesting, revealing, enjoyable and informative post. This seems to have cleared a lot of things up; laid a few ghosts to rest. Thanks indeed!

 

He probably did whatever he thought brought him the most money in the end

 

mcvey already covered most things (and did so excellently I might add), but a couple of additional points.

Jack was thirty by the time he finally won the title, and thirty-two by the time he beat Jeff to become the 'real' champion in some people's eyes. He'd been campaigning for a shot since probably the Jack Jeffries fight in 1902 and had beaten a ton of fighters, including McVey (multiple times), Jeanette (multiple times), and Langford by the time he got to Burns. For some reason the pre-title years seem to be completely ignored by Johnson haters, despite them being when he was in his physical prime and was cleaning up the division of all worthy contenders - black and white - all over the world. Once he'd finally beaten Burns and Jeff he felt no obligation to then go into a series of gruelling fights for shitty pay when he could just do theatre shows, get drunk, enjoy life and bang a load of white birds. It seems strange to criticise him for this given he was 32 after Reno and given how much he'd already accomplished, and how much hard work and how many great wins were behind him. If anyone deserved a little time to enjoy the fruits of their hard work then it was this fella.

 

You are welcome ,that's just my take on it ,others may very well disagree.
N B .Johnson's biggest purse was for fighting Jim Jeffries, Langfords for fighting Iron Hague, both were mixed black and white contests.:think

 

Johnson was champion from 1908-1915. During this time line the top three challengers were Langford, Jeanette, McVey. You could argue Smith as well for a short period of time. Toward the tail end from 1914-1915, you could argue Wills, and Willard were in the top three. Johnson most certainly drew the color line vs. Langford, Jeanette, and Mcvey. There were big time money offers in the papers from known promoters, and the matches could have happened in Australia, or Europe. Johnson wanted easier marks vs. white fighters who were either very small, old/washed up, or journeyman level opponents. In other words, he drew the color line…well sort of. He did face Jim “ Battling “ Johnson, who was black, and the result for Johnson according to the NY time, and book ( Unforgivable Blackness ) was a lucky draw. There was no re-match! Joe Jeanette said when Johnson became champion he forgot his old friends, and drew the color line against his own people. Harsh, but true words.

Smith and Willard were white. Oddly enough, Smith floored Johnson in a four round exhibition match ( Source NY times ) to the point where Johnson’s manager halted the match when Johnson was down and dazed. This happened in 1909 while Johnson was champion. Willard of course, KO’d Johnson in 1915 and took the title.

In summary, Johnson avoided the best black challengers while champion. He fought one black fighter, and the match was a draw. Johnson was KO’d by the best white fighter he fought in a real match, and could not finish the exhibition match vs the other top rated white fighter in Smith. All of the above happened from 1908-1915.

Could you image if Ali avoided Foreman, Frazier, and Norton as champion? Or if Marciano avoided Charles, Moore and Walcott? History would have blasted them. But Johnson gets a pass. Such is the agenda…

 

it is probably more like Ali avoiding Liston, Patterson and Jones after winning the title, and also after having fought and beat each before winning the title.

 

This is an excellent post, and one which cant really be disputed factually.

Just some other things to consider also,
Like Dempsey and others, Johnson rarely defended at all. In a sense you could say he lived the high life, though i am not sure many would choose his version of the high life over dempseys.

Johnson dominated the three top contenders when they actually fought. Not much more he could do. It would almost be like accusing Sonny Liston for Ducking Floyd Patterson in his comeback, had he won the title. Not much more johnson could really do.

The three guys mentioned, with hindsight were the three top contenders. I am not so sure they are the out and out standout contenders at any point in time for anything other than longevity. Certainly they were not standouts like Tyson was for Spinks, Lennox was for Briggs, Johnson for Jeffries (or even vice versa) etc.


Jim Johnson is one guy i feel is dreadfully underated and underappreciated today. This is a guy who has fought on even terms with Johnson, mcvey, Jeanette, Langford, Tate, arguably even Wills, who has never (from my recollection) been stopped by any of those guys and yet he is just considered a journeyman boxer who was nothing special and simply a battler. I dare say if he was known as Sugar Jim Johnson, bonecrusher Jim Johnson or maybe even Gunboat Jim Johnson he would have a huge following and resume today.


The Wills situation would have been interesting. Hypothetically, if Johnson had rematched and beat Willard, or even better say Dempsey, would a Wills fight be made. Wills was the second highest paid and best drawing fighter of the Dempsey era and definitely the most dangerous challenger. Presumable after beating Dempsey, Johnson could write his own price against white challengers. This would be a very interesting and telling situation, i think.

 

Where have you been? I've been expecting you.When did Langford become top challenger for Johnson ? Give a year? Saying from1908, until 1915 is not only vague, it is absurd.

McVey fought Johnson 3 times emphatically losing all of them. In their last encounter ,after being painfully schooled for 19 rds ,Johnson kod him in the 20th, and final round .
Where was the profit in defending against him , and who would pay to see it?
Johnson fought Jeannette many times he scored multiple knockdowns of him and Jeannette was rescued from a ko in at least one fight because it was only a short fight.
Jeannette lost to Black Bill 3 times once by ko.
Johnson took out Bill inside a round.

Jeannette lost to Sandy Ferguson,Johnson toyed with Ferguson.

Jeannette drew with Tony Ross, Johnson played with Ross.

Jeannette lost to Morris Harris twice and drew with him, Johnson kod both Harris and Black Bill inside a round on the same night.

Jeannette against Battling Jim Johnson ? They fought 8 times Jeannette won 3 he was floored in one of the wins., 2 were draws ,1 a no dec and he was beaten in 2 fights. Jack Johnson drew with Battling Jim when he was 35, overweight ,and fighting with a broken arm, he had also been out of the ring for a year and a half.
Unrforgivable Blackness does NOT say Johnson was lucky to get a draw in their fight. The NY Times did NOT have a reporter at the Johnson/ Johnson fight. They filed an A.P report.

I can show---

RINGSIDE REPORTS THAT THE CHAMPION FINISHED STRONGLY AND THE CHALLENGER WAS IN TROUBLE AT THE END OF THE FIGHT.

Please show ,PRIMARY SOURCED PROOF THAT CONCRETE BIG MONEY OFFERS WERE ON THE TABLE FOR JOHNSON TO DEFEND AGAINST THE THREE BLACK CHALLENGERS IN QUESTION.

ACCORDING TO GUNBOAT SMITH HIMSELF ,[1972, TAPED INTERVIEW ,]HE PUT JOHNSON PART WAY THROUGH THE ROPES IN A SPARRING SESSION.
SMITH WAS NOT A LEADING CONTENDER AT THAT TIME ,IN FACT HE WAS NOT EVEN A PROFESSIONAL FIGHTER.THE NY TIMES DID NOT HAVE A REPORTER PRESENT AT THE SPARRING SESSION, THEY FILED AN A P REPORT.

This has been dealt with absolutely hundreds of times on this forum.


EVERY ONE, EXCEPT YOU ,ACCEPTS THAT IT WAS A MEANINGLESS SPARRING SESSION. AS WAS MARCIANO'S WHEN HE WAS DROPPED BY TOXIE HALL,TYSON BY GREG PAGE, VITALI BY WALKER, AND BUTLER.
WANT ME TO MENTION CORBETT DROPPING AND NEARLY PUTTING OUT JEFFRIES IN THE HAND BALL COURT, IN A SPAR? OK I HAVE:good


Langford made something of a career fighting Battling Jim Johnson, they met 12 times Langford won 10 but was held to a draw in the other 2. Like Jeannette in his fights with Battling Jim, Langford ,[unlike Jack Johnson ,] was NOT fighting with a broken arm . Langford also lost to Jim Flynn and easy victim for Johnson. Langford was stopped by Young Peter Jackson in their series He also drew with Jackson .Jackson ran like a thief to last the distance against Johnson. Now!
PLEASE GET SOME NEW MATERIAL FOR ME TO DEMOLISH.atsch
YOU SAD, AGENDA DRIVEN BIGOT .

 

Yeah it's one of the less publicised things about him. You kinda have to make the transition to budding historian to discover this about lil Arthur.

Jack has the saving grace that he did at one point in his career beat those he later avoided. Plus he was always perceived as better than them.

But yeah the colour line was well and truly drawn.

 

What a joke you are. Langford for years could be viewed as the #1 or #2 challenger for Johnson for years. In fact he often fought the same guys Johnson gave title shots to and unlike Johnson, he KO’d them convincingly.

STOP!!! McVey was a teenager in two of those matches and but 20 in the third. FACT, FACT, FACT!!! Can you say Johnson beat a not ready for prime time McVey? Just admit it and move on!. As I told you numerous times, Jeannette had a losing record when he first meet Johnson, and was not much better than 500 when they last fought. Of course Johnson beat Langford when Sam was but 156 pounds, a far cry from the terror he would become.

1 ) Read the book and learn! I dare you to re-post what they said on the fight here, and in full context. 2 ) Johnson did struggle in the match with Battling Johnson.

Fighters are full of it sometimes. Smith also said he ( Johnson ) never for forgot it. Smith for a while was a top level contender. He was white, but far from a " hope ". Hmmm....wonder why Johnson never gave Gunboat Smith a shot, even though he beat Willard and Moran BEFORE Johnson gave them a title shot. Smith wasn't small, and could fight.

Take note, you are not saying one thing I posted in the 1st reply here is untrue, rather you attack the sources, then play double standards with sources.:deal

 

^^^True, yet some can not admit it.