Did James Jeffries retire too soon?

There isn't an excuse for "every" bad performance. Furthermore, if a first-hand account of the fight tells that Haines was down for over three minutes, and there is no other evidence to refute it, then it's not just simply an excuse anymore, it's a fact.

And I have never used the "They had more fights that are unrecorded" line. You have me confused with someone else.

 

Can´t you read? I wrote "At one side, people...", people is not you, don´t be so self-centered.

 

No, it's just that I can only speak for myself. I cannot speak for others.

 

It seems you're full of excuses for Johnson bad performances. You say he as too green ( not after 20 fights! ), was not in shape ( who's fault was that? ), or was in a fixed fight. This is rather convenient of you.

Show me one newspaper that claims Haines was down for over three minutes. It’s a fabrication. As I said before C.M. Clay, Johnson was not a great fighter while Jeffries was champ. The losses to Haines, Choysnki, Griffin, and Hart prove this. There are also too many draws on Johnson's record vs lesser types.

 

From you we don´t even need to start talking about, you remember when yesterday another poster (a newbie I believe, don´t know his name) said something about one of your idols, Tyson, what you answered? Normally you had to get banned. When someone says something negative about one of your favourite fighters, you immediately claim that it isn´t true, he´s a hater, racist, etc...

 

Have you ever though, that a fight between two journeyman black men would not garner much attention to be featured in a mewspaper?

Anyway, here's the excerpt from Unforgiveable Blackness.

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Well, I lost my temper there. But obviously the guy was there just to get a rouse of of somebody. He wasn't going to add anything substanative to the thread.

 

At least you´re honest. :thumbsup

 

I try to be.

 

I've enjoyed this thread but decided to wait out of it as there seemed to be two personal contests been played out. Plenty of good food for thought though and I certainly found myself re-evaluating both Jeff and Johnson. I also happen to be researching Griffin, Martin and McVey at the moment and of course I'M coming across the big two all the time.
Bob Armstrong was never considered a serious contender by many in Jeff's reign but in the early 1901-02's Martin certainly was touted. McVey and especially Johnson removed him with pretty conclusive and brutal ko's. By 1901 Jeff was drawing the color line when Johnson was not in the frame. 1903 saw McVey emerge as a potential challanger despite his greeness. Remember this was a period with very few stand-out challangers. Johnson's win relegated him and by 1904 Jack had emerged as his greatest challanger. His loss to Hart moved Marvin into the scene without removing Johnson as no matter which of the many tellings you read it was a debatable decision(both ways) Jack had some lack-lustre performances for some inexpicable reason but against the likes of Childs, Martin, McVey, Gardiner and Langford it was pretty obvious that he was special.
langford was not in the heavyweight picture at this time and neither was Jeannette. Griffin, at the risk of getting lynched was a tad overated and was well out-classed bt Jeff. His best performances were against JJ! In conclusion Martin and Johnson were the only two blacks that it could in any way be argued to be denied a shot by Jeff. BTW in 1905 Jeffries would have been a heavy favourite but i think it would have been a hell of a fight, the regulations of the fight probably proving decisive.

 

Any of Johnsons preformences before the Choynski fight should be completely discounted when asesing his ability at his peak. In some of these fights he was sleeping in doorways the night before and living off scraps.

Johnson did not really hit the big time untill his win over George Gardiner in which he was the underdog. This is when Johnson the future champion realy starts.

Johnsons reign as coloured heavyweight champion was simply incredible. Look at the oponents he fought over that period and how frequently he fought them. This is the period when Johnsons greatness was established.

 

Tell that to Luigi. He thinks that when people say he was often underfed and ill-prepared before Choynski that they are lame excuses and "nuthugging".

 

Keep Punching Cassius!you winning on points,Ive kod the "historian",up to you to decision"Lightnin Luigi The Italian Stallion "now.

 

Well said. Langford, Jeanette, and McVey were not great fighters when Jeffires retired in 1905. There are " reports " of a Jeffries Ko'ing Martin. There is a chance this happened, but I'd like to see a primary source. Judging by Martin multiple early KO losses, and his bean pole like build, Jeffries would KO Martin early.

I do think Johnson was worthy of a title shot from Jeffries from 1903-1905, but it wasn't a great case when you factor in Johnson losses, and draws while Jeffries was champion from 1899-1904. Who won the Johnson vs Hart fight is debatable. Johnson says Hart beat him clean, and the referee gave the fight to Hart. This is enough for me. Either way, Hart was not in Fitz's, Sharkey's, or Corbett’s class. If Johnson could not impress vs Hart in a high stakes fight billed as a title elimination match, his chances vs Jeffries seem limited.

If one were to list a top 15 list of fighters from 1895-1904, Jeffries probably fought at least 10 of the top 15, and gave the best fighters title shots ( with the exception of Johnson, who he returned fight six years later ) while he was champion. This equates to cleaning out an era. Having said that, I do think Jeffries retired too soon.

 

Let's see. Johnson had at least 25 fights under his belt before facing Choysnki. The fight took place in Johnson's home town. It was Choysnki who rode the rails to meet him. Of Course Choynski produced a 1 punch KO over Johnson. In the book Dynamite Punchers, Johnson said his head was ringing the next day.

So much for your excuses that Johnson was green, or weary for the fight. He was the bigger man. It was in his home town. He got knocked out. As I said before, when Johnson meet another fighter near his size and experience, his results are mixed. See the Kloindike, Choysnki, Griffin or Hart fights, as well as the smattering of draws vs lesser men.