Did James Jeffries retire too soon?

In terms of what Johnson became, then yes, he should still be considered a little 'green' for when he fought Choynski.

It was a self-realized learning curve, and pivotal point in his career. Johnson went onto famously sight Choynski as a major tailor in his development as a fighter.

 

Interesting take. Johnson had 26 fights on record and quite a few battle royals under his belt prior to facing Choynski. Surely there must be more undocumented fights. IMO, this is a bit too much to play the green card. I do agree with you that Johnson grew as a fighter as his career progressed.

If someone asked me which group of boxers was better between

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, I would surely choose group B.

So why did group A all defeat Jack Johnson, whereas group B did outside of one fight with Jeanette did not? This is the 64,000 question that many people fail to grasp when looking at things from the 10,000 foot level. I have studied this issue. Here's the straight dope. Johnson took advantage of a green teenaged McVey, a very raw and no better than .500 record ( Joe was 0-3 when he first meet Johnson ) Joe Jeanette, and a Sam Langford was but 156 pounds when he mixed it with Papa Jack. Martin really wasn't a great fighter. He was only a good fighter. Wins over group B look great on paper for Johnson, but when you examine them, they quickly lose some luster.

Group A all seemed to be near even with Johnson in terms of size and experience. And every man in group A defeated Johnson. My conclusion is Haines, Choysnki, Griffin, and Hart were better fighters than the versions of McVey, Jeanette, Langford, and Martin who fought Johnson.

Of course, McVey, Jeanette, and Langford were great fighters by 1908-1915. What Johnson needed to do was give these three title matches. Then we would see for sure how good Johnson was. This was not to be. So what we can judge a seasoned Johnson on his title matches. Some were impressive performances ( Burns, and old Jeffries ). Others were close matches vs group C heavyweights like Jim Battling Johnson, Jack O'Brien, and Frank Moran.

Honestly,

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is better than Group

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).....and Johnson struggled in title matches vs Group C as a seasoned champion.

In short, Johnson was undoubtley one of his era’s best heavyweights, but he is also an over rated heavyweight if you truly examine his career. Some people think Johnson is an all time top 3 heavyweight. Not a chance in my book. This is my opinion, but it’s not a shoot from the hip opinion. It’s an opinion that has been articualted and formulated after many years of news paper review, record review with a close focus on how good the fighters were when Johsnon meet them, and film study.

 

You could have a 100 fights under your belt, but unless these opponents are offering you new obstacles to overcome you won’t be learning anything new. When Johnson fought Choynski he was a tumble weed in the wind, not a fighter being brought to the boil. The difference in standards we are talking about here is startling, so what his record may suggest to you will in fact be a representation of a set of very different circumstances.

What Choynski said to Johnson was deep, it was a comment Johnson took to heart and regularly referenced when talking of his early days. “A guy who can move like you should never have to take a punch”. - Choynski understood Johnson’s abilities as a fighter and steered him in the right direction.

During their time in jail they were allowed to spar in front of the inmates for recreational and entertainment purposes, but Johnson said he was always switched on and learning during these invaluable sparring cameos.

Johnson was involved in many battles royals as a kid and he had to overcome some torrid times before he found his groove. There is no doubt he was a super tough man despite occasional insinuations of a lesser chin. Johnson always had a natural abundance of speed, strength and co-ordination, but all this seemed to hone-in to a T after his studies with Choynski - a man with an incomparable wealth of knowledge and experience.

On the subject of McVea, Langford, and Jeannette; all these men were all too aware of their superiority in the ring and this effectively shot down their chances of a title fight. They quickly learnt to accept their router of a ‘coloured merry-go-round’.

Much can be criticized of Johnson’s ‘black dynamite’ fights when you view their records at the time, but they do not tell half the story. McVea was good friends with Johnson and refused to fight him after their third fight for some time. The Jeaneatte fights were more like sparring sessions, and Langford went for it, so he paid the price with his “careers worst beating”.

Johnson eventually got a title shot because he got into the heads of the white man. He was, generally, nice to his ‘brothers’ and made an object of the white contenders to attack the theory of white superiority. Johnson’s rep did not come from the results of his fights, it came from the times when he held his man up from going down and effectively said “I can do what I like with these guys”.

You’ve claimed that if you ‘truly examine’ Johnson's career you would see things more your way, but Ted Spoon is quite sure that the opposite would become apparent if more of Johnson's early fights were there to view, allowing us to truly examine these hazy times.

 

Did Choynski really reach Johnson that much? If so, Johnson did not prove to be a quick study. After the Choysnki fight, Johnson drew with Billy Stift next.

Stiff was much smaller and had already been knocked out by the likes of Welter weight / middle weight Tommy Ryan, a washed up middle in Dan Creedon, Kid McCoy, and Tommy West. Stift had only won 1 of his last six fights going into the Johnson match.

The fact that Johnson drew with Stift in a 10 round match to me says Johnson simply was not that good, Ted Spoon. Surely if Choyski gave Johnson a relation when the two were in jail, it did not show in this fight.

After the Stift draw, Johsnon lost to Griffin and drew with Griffin. Choysnki's words of wisdom did not pay immediate dividends.

As for my comments on the three groups of fighters that Johnson meet, I think the points are valid. Johnson was not a great fighter while Jeffires was champion. His resume is misleading as he defeated green versions of the best black dynamite fighters to be, and was mediocre in some title matches as a mature and seasoned champion.

 

You would have to look at the circumstances atending these fights to understand their significence.

It was quite comon in this period for a draw to be awarded if both fighters finished on their feet.

 

Mendoza, r u Dr Z because i have not seen Z in a while

 

Doctor who?

 

As Janitor pointed out, a lot can be said about draws during that time period in boxing.

You're looking too far into unknown battles, but Johnson's fortune did change greatly after his meeting with Choynski as he began to tackle a far higher calibre of opponents.

 

:good

 

And whatever setbacks Johnson had early in his career you still have a fifteen year period where his only loss was a questionable points loss to Marvin Hart to explain away.

 

This guy?

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lol, dr. who.

If Jeffries would have had it his way, he would have retired after Fitzsimmons II, if not then, for sure after Corbett II. Monroe had circulated his story that he had dropped Jeffries in a sparring match and this irked Jeffries enough to get him in the ring and destroy him. So, take Monroe out of the picture, which was more of a personal vendetta, and you see Jeffries seriously loosing interest in being champion by the end of 1903. Johnson, et all were surely not legit challengers at that point.

If Jeffries had continued to fight, and wanted the championship, I think he could have held on to it for another four years or so. Having a title reign from
1899-1908. Maybe longer. Little did he know that he would wind up losing a lot of his money.

 

CM Clay,

I was in the book store for lunch today and pulled out a copy of Unforgivable Blackness. I wanted to check up on the Haines, and Hart fights.

Ward says Johnson received an even LONGER count that Haines did. Are you aware of this CM Clay? The three minute count is an exaggeration. The writing style of Ward is rather good, but his fact checking leaves a lot to be desired.

In the introduction to Jeffries passage, Ward claims Jeffries had never been knocked off his feet in 58 fights. 58 fights for Jeffires? I'd love to see Ward's sources because Jeffries does not have close to 58 documented fights.

In the prelude to the Hart fight, Ward states that Johnson and his handlers felt that if Johnson could beat Hart, the possibility of a fight with Jeffries would greatly increase. It also states that Johnson would receive more money if he knocked Hart out. The story of the Johnson vs Hart fight in Unforgivable Blackness is Johnson did well early; Hart did well late. Johnson corner men were urging him to press it, but Hart's attack had Johnson defensive and gun shy. Hart staggered Johnson in the final frame.

Regarding the 3 minute counts in the Haines fight and the 58 fights for Jeffires, you should be mindful that modern day authors aren’t always fact checking boxing historians and often used a " poetic " license to color their stories. I get the hunch if I read more of the book; I'd find quite a few of these poetic licenses by Ward.

 

It doesn't matter if Johnson got a longer count than Haines or not. Haines went down first, so after ten the fight should have been over. Johnson was robbed.

Regarding the undocumened Jeffries fights, maybe he could have been talkign about certain fights that weren't legal or undergraond fights that were held in conspicuous places. These events happened all the time.

And as for the Hart fight, Johnson was said to be dominating the fight up to the eleventh round. That means that he should have won at least ten of the twenty rounds which would have guaranteed at least a draw or a win if he won one more round. Hart staggered Johnson because the lights went out in the final seconds, so Johnson thought the fight was over and walked away. Hart pounced on him in the dark and landed the punch. If it was light, this probably would have never happened.

 

Hart also nearly dropped Johnson with a body shot in round 12, and clearly made the fight, which in those days meant a lot in terms of the scoring. All Johnson had to do according to Ward was win cleanly, and then he might have built up enough interest for a promoter to lure Jeffries into a prize fight in 1905 or 1906. Hart was not that great. Johnson performance in this high stakes fight speaks volumes about his chances vs Jeffries in 1905.

I never saw any claim of a three minute count, nor have I ever seen any claim that Jeffries had 58 fights before he retired. Where are Ward's soruces? Sorry kiddo, Ward's credibility seems a bit iffy. I might read some other passages when time permits. I understand why it is in your best interest to embrace what he says as the truth, just understand it misty eyed stuff designed to buttress his subject material.