Did James Jeffries retire too soon?

Im a little puzzled as to why you are so sure Johnson had no chance against Jeffries in1905, why would Jck have to ko Jeffries?.which I agree at that point in Jeffs career would seem to be an impossibility,he may have outboxed him to win a decisionJohnson was kod by Choynsky in 1901 ,4 years earlier,Jack had improved immeasurbly since then,you mentioned the weight disparity,how much weight was Choynsky conceding to jeffries when he held him to a 2o round draw in 1897?50 55lbs?Why should Johnson get stopped with fractured ribs when Jeffries didnt stop the greatly outweighed Choynsky?,You say that Jeff would likely have stopped Sharkey if his arm was uninjured ,it was ok in their first fight wasnt it?.Jeffries was much stronger and more durable than anybody HE faced in his career, in all his defenses Jeffries held big size and weight advantages ,and in his major ones age too. According to Box rec the Johnson Young Peter Jackson fight was a pre arranged draw.Tunney and Marciano retired with no worthwhile challengers in sight ,Jeffries retired with Mcvey,Jeanette,Langford ,Martin,and Johnson all in or near their primes, Ill exclude Langford because like you Ive read the peice by Joe Woodman challenging anyone bar Jeffries.,that still leaves the other 4

 

For C.M. Clay II:


Jeffries didn´t retire because he was afraid of Johnson, he retired because he had enough money, he didn´t have a real contender who would have been a real challenge for him (except some black fighters, but in this time it was unfortunately so that white fighters don´t fight them, it wasn´t his personal opinion/ choice), when he came back 6 years after his retirement in his horrible shape it was because he wanted to show everybody who´s the best, I know you love Johnson and you´re totally biased in this area, but just wake up and think at first before posting such a ****, Johnson wouldn´t have a chance against a prime Jeffries, James would be too big and pysically too strong for him, if he struggled in his prime against the likes of Hart, Thompson, etc., stop now with your black propaganda, say when you want that you THINK Jeffries retired because of this and that, but not he surely retired because he ducked and feared a man who drew against journeymen sometimes...

 

There is no doubt that he retired too soon. He definitely had a lot of good fights left in him.

 

some comments--I used to live in San Francisco, so I had easy access to the microfilms at the library of his old fights. You are misleading on a few points.
1. Griffin-Jeff knocked out Griffin early in their careers, probably in 1893 off the SF Chronicle & NY Times. The 1901 fight was an exhibition in which Griffin won a prize if he lasted 4 rounds. Griffin ran the whole fight and went down several times without being hit as a stalling tactic. Some of the papers reported it as a farce & Jeff was apparently frustrated.
2. Choynski--According to the next day papers, Choynski was down only once. The SF Call describes Jeffries scoring "the first and only knockdown of the fight" with a left swing in the 3rd round. Choynski took 7, got up "spryly" and easily lasted out the round.
As to who won, here is the SF Call's summation: "Choynski most assuredly scored the most points . . . and certainly had the better of the night's contest, having scored the cleanest hits and in defensive work he more than proved his superiority over the big Los Angeles heavyweight."
W W Naughton in the SF Examiner commenting: "Bout ended in a draw and Referee McDonald's decision was a just one."
"Choynski settled on the straight left as a steady thing, and possibly in a contest to the finish he might have won out with it. Jeffries has the stamina of a young draft colt and although he bled freely, his stamina was not dimished."
Joe Goddard was quoted on the fight by the Examiner: "The decision was just. Choynski landed the hardest blows, but Jeffries seemed to balance matters by being aggressive."
Tom Sharkey also quoted in the Examiner: "Referee McDonald rendered a just decision."
3. Munroe--Jeff destroyed Munroe in the title defense in 1904, but he may have lost an earlier exhibition in Bozeman, Montana, which forced the title defense. Gilbert Odd, in his biography of Fitz who was touring with Jeff at the time, reports that Jeff claimed he was carrying Munroe into the fourth to give the spectators their money's worth. Perhaps, but we only have Jeff's word for that. Anyway, Munroe was still on his feet going into the fourth. Jeff went after him, but according to Odd, was dropped to his knees by a right to the jaw. Jeff tried to recoup for the rest of the round, but rather than running, Munroe held his own toe to toe and was reported as the winner of the fight by the local paper.
That Munroe could beat Jeff over 4 rounds is not out of the question. He had gone to a twenty round draw with Hank Griffin, and would defeat old Tom Sharkey in 6 later.
Bottom line--one could argue that Johnson did better with Munroe.

 

Griffin went down after being out fought, and then ran. I see a big difference here, as Johnson did not accomplish anything remotely close to this in his fights with Griffin.

A few comments here. Jeffries said in his biography that he floored Choynski three times. The New papers of the times often miss knockdowns. If you read as many news reports as I have, you be amazed at how some papers miss things. Goddard was buddies with Choysnki from Choysnki's Aussie days so factor that in when Goddard said the fight was a draw. San Fran in those days was Choysnki's town. He was the name fighter going into the match, not Jeffries. Creditable reports all say Choysnki ran in the second half of the fight. Getting back to my point, it is easy to see that Jeffries was better than Johnson vs the same opponents.

No, there is no way to argue that Johnson did better vs Munroe, unless you think a 6 round ND with no knockdowns, trumps a KO 2 win in world title match. Jeffries went on tour offering $500.00 to local fighters that could last four rounds with him. Munroe lasted four rounds, and claimed the $500.00 even though he was knocked down three times in the 4 round match. Munroe claim to fame was scoring a knock down in the exhibition, which lead to the title match. To close again, I see 11 total matches vs the same opponents, with one fighter doing MUCH better than the other.

 

A few things here, McVey.

Box Rec says:

Let me get this correct. Johnson had a monetary incentive ( Jack loved money ) to KO a much smaller fighter in Young Peter Jackson who was on the decline and failed to do so? I see no mention at Box rec of a pre-arranged draw.

As for the other fighters, are you aware Jeanette was a 0-3 nobody when Jeffries retired?

Ed Martin had a big time glass body and jaw. Multiple early Ko losses to lesser men will tell you this, and if you want to cross reference a Jeffries fight, Bob Armstrong who was a good, but not great puncher KO'd Martin twice early. KO2, and KO3.

Sam McVey was still a bit green when Jeffries retired in 1905. His record was 8-4, with three losses in a row.

So you see, Jeanette, and McVey were not on the radar screen for title shots at all when Jeffires retired. Maybe Martin was a bit more established, but I doubt he's last long Vs Jeffries. Next in line for Jeffries in 1905 was Hart, then perhaps O’Brien or Burns.

Jeanette, McVey, and Langford were ready for title shots around 1908 when Johnson won the title from Burns, not 1905 when Jeffries retired.

 

Griffin--Jeff did better than Johnson, but the farcical 1901 exhibition is irrelevent evidence.
Choynski--no paper quoted 3 knockdowns. Either you are quoting Jeffries wrong or he was wrong. Perhaps he considered a couple of slips as knockdowns. I don't know. He might also have been confusing this fight with the Ruhlin draw, in which Jeff did score three knockdowns, thus pulling out a fight in which he was badly outboxed.
There is no basis in simply assuming the ringside reports that Choynski held his own were inaccurate without film evidence.
Jeffries did do better against Choynski than Johnson did.
Munroe--Who actually claimed Jeff scored three knockdowns? Odd does not mention this. If he did, why did the local paper think Munroe won? Jeff scored three knockdowns in the title fight.
I still think Johnson could be viewed as doing better against Munroe. Did anyone at all think he lost?

 

Jeffries floored Choynsky with a left hook in the 3round,Choynsky ,who was 50 lbs the lighter man ran to keep out of trouble.In the 16th round Choynsky met the rushing Jeffries with a right smashed his nose,after which the pace dropped and honours were about even.

 

To get back on topic Jeffries was never better than in his last fight before he retired.

 

When Jeffries retired May 1905 SamMcvey had a total of 9 wins ,4 losses 3 of the losses were to johnson ,the last by ko in20 rds,his other loss was to Denver Ed Martin..I didnt look in my "archives" for this information ,its readily available on Box rec.Any Historian should have found it without trouble.

 

Certainly from a boxing historian point of view, perhaps not from his point of view. Without doubt Johnson was a serious challanger, so too was Hart. Nobody else was considered in the frame at that time. Martin was on the way down, Langford was only just testing the heavyweight waters and nobody considered him a hw contender in early 1905. Jeanette was unknown. McVey was still not in the top frame. The TIMEFRAME IS VITAL!
We now know that there were great fights out there but only with the benefit of hondsight.

 

Like I said and many others said, there was a public outcry for a Jeffries-Johnson fight. So for you to say that there were no real challengers for Jeffries is just closing your eyes to the truth in front of you. Doesn't matter if they were black or not. If the public and the sports world wants this fight to happen, then the color line isssue is really irrelevant, isn't it?

Also what makes you think Johnson would have "no chance"? the relatively light-hitting Corbett and the 175lb. Fitz gave him hell and they were all smaller than Johnson. Jeffries would have maybe 15-20lbs on him, but Johnson was physically very strong and had powerful arms, using them to tie opponents up while simultaneously working the body. This is not the mismatch that you're tryng to make it out to be. I think Johnson's ofensive and defensive arsenal would expose Jeffries' crude style and would outbox him to a wide decision.

 

Ok, first of all, Dempsey didn't duck Wills. He tried many times to get the fight, but the politics of the day didn't allow it. This is a different situation. There wasn't just "some" people who wanted to see it. Police Gazette, which was the "Ring Magazine" of it's day made a big deal about it in their column. This fight was really clamored for because it would have matched what popular opinion thought the two best heavyweights in the world to decide the true champion. Sure he could have continued his career without facing Johnson, but he would have been really ridiculed for not fighting him by the boxing public, and no doubt his ATG status would have diminished in the eyes of the public.:good