Did James Jeffries retire too soon?

I read Paddy. I read him as Frank...Slavin. That was the confusion. No matter. Either way, it’s obvious clear you’re a novice with an agenda who will continue to be badly outclassed in a boxing debate with me. You can’t even quote Box Rec correctly ( See the Young Peter Jackson comment ). I accuse you of the same thing, a blatant hidden dislike for Jeffries, and an unadulterated infatuation with Johnson that puts your reason in question. You call me a baised hater. I shall do the same with you.

I think Johnson was a talent. I also think he's misunderstood and over rated. If you read what I post, what I say is true. The films, results , new clipings, and facts don’t lie. Embrace them. The only think you have to offer in return is excuses for him! You have to ask yourself, what do you value more, the truth of the sweet science, or fan boy fantasies?

And by the way, please keep up your snooty tone. It gives me the chance to have fun with your continuing edification. At the very least the board will learn a thing or two along the way.

Ta-ta.

PS: Oh, sure, Johnson won some fights before Burns. He also got Ko'd, drew too often, and was lack luster in several fights. I'll formate a reply later. At best Johnson results piror to 1906 were a mixed bag. In fact when the experience and size of Johnson opponets were near even, I think he looks anything but special from the 1890's to 1905.

 

Time for a bit of fun McVey. Read my replies, then comment back if you dare.

Jack Johnson from 1898-1905. Cleaned out the divson you say? Let's examine.

1898: Drew with nobodies Jim McCormick and Henry Smith!

1899: Got KO'd and quit on his stool vs Klondike! I guess Klondike was a fighter near even with size and experience on Johnson. Remember this theme.

Then Johnson drew with nobody named Pat Smith.

1900: Drew with Klondike again

1901: Drew with Scanlon.

Ko'd by Choynski in three. It was a one punch KO. Hmmm....Choysnki wasn't green. He rode the rails to Johnson’s home town. Funny when Johnson is matched vs a man with some experience and some power ( klondike and Choynski ) he got knocked out.

Drew with Stift

Lost to Griffin on points....funny when Johnson is matched vs a man with some expereince and power, he losses yet again!

Drew with Griffin.

1902:

Drew with Griffin again.

1905:

Losses to Hart on points.....funny when Johnson is matched vs a man with some experience and power, he looses yet again.

Losses to Jeanette on a low blow foul. Jeanette, who was 6-4-1 at the time had Johnson rocked in round one. Read the fight clip sometime.

Facts and Summary: The most accomplished fighters Johnson fought up to 1905 ( Hart, Griffin, Choysnki, and Klondkie ) ALL BEAT JACK JOHNSON! Ouch, this guy is soooo over rated. Please insert all your excuses McVey, I'm ready to fall out of my chair in laughter.

 

My post shows Im not a Jefries hater I referred to him as a "tremendous fighter,with fantastic durability,prodigious strength and courage ,a good solid punch ,to go with a granite chin" wheres the hate? wheres the agenda? Ishowed why Armstrong didnt merit a match with Johnson,I gave you facts.I asked you to give me Jeffries best wins TWICE,no reply. You are a pompous vain up your own orifice ,muppet who makes unfounded statements ,then doesnt reply when they are refuted with facts. Johnson isnt one of my favourite fighters at all actually ,he was a lazy ,vain ,untrustworthy strutting peacock,and like you an egoist,but facts are facts,at 58 Im way past "fan boy fantasies".An example of your overweening conceit is the statement "the board will learn a thing or two along the way",what self satisfied twaddle,there are many fine posters on here ,certainly better informed than me ,or you for that matter,the difference is I KNOW IT.

 

Fitz I, Corbett I, Sharkey II, Sharkey I, Griffin I. Those are Jeffries best wins in my opinion.

Now, please address your full of errors post where I commented in green, and explain to me why Johnson lost to most experienced fighters he fought up to 1905! This should be fun.

 

Fitz ,when he was beaten by Jeffries, hadnt had a fight in 2 years he had been on the vaudeville circuithe was 37 years old and 33lbs lighter than the 206 Jeffries,Corbett when he fought Jeffries,had retired twice he hadnt had a fightin 2 years ,and then only one a losing one to Sharkey so between losing the title to Fitz and challenging Jeffries Corbett had had one fight in three years and in the last two years no fights at all,he was 34 and 30lbs lighter,the two fights with Sharkey ,very hard ones for Jeffries were both wins for him ,Sharkey was 6 inches shorter ,and 32 lbs lighter these were still good wins for Jeffries as Unlike the others Sharkey was in his prime,and had been active,but he was kod twice by Fitz ,twice by Ruhlin,yet Jeffries failed to stop the much smaller man,Jeffries best win may well be his defeat of Hank Griffin,a very creditable result,but his wins as champion were over ex champions past their primes ,who had been inactive,or retired ,or both,and whom he greatly outweighed,or like Sharkey ,towered above,these are the undisputable facts.So his reputation is founded on victories over men past their best ,most of them past their early 30s,and considerably outweighed and outsized.

 

Fitz kept himself in shape and boxed exbibitions. He was still deadly and proved this by comming back after the KO to Jeffries to win some big matches.

Corbett was 33, not 34. Your math is off. Corbett was in his prime. The reporters say it was his best effort.

Sharkey like Corbett was also in his prime.

I have no doubt that Fitz, Corbett and Sharkey were the BEST challengers out there for Jeffries from 1899-1903. Unlike Johnson, Jeffries actually gave the best fighters title shots. You can’t win. A simple compare and contrast of title opponents and you lose. By the way I waiting for your excuses as to why Johnson got his but handed to him by the likes of Klodike, CHoysnki, Griffin, and Hart, who as a group were several notches below Fitz, Sharkey and Corbett that Jeffries beat. Heck-- the draws to nobodies that Johnson had are an indication he wasn't a world beater while Jeffires was champ.

Jeffries rep wasn't only based on beating Corbett, Fitz and Shareky. It was also based on retiring undefeated, never being down in his prime, winning key matches with injures, and quickly moving up the mountian to the championship without meeting tomato cans.

As for weight, Marciano, and Dempsey were around the same weight as Corbett, and Sharkey. Are you saying a 185 pound fighter can't beat a 220 pound fighter? You need to clarify here. The bigger fighters would be easier for Jeffries because they could not run like Corbett.

Every historian who saw Corbett, and Fitzsimmons says they were great. This means more that whatever you write. Sharkey too is in the hall of fame.

PS: Do you still think Johsnon Ko'd Jeanette and Ferguson?

 

You should switch to a Star Wars avatar like the rest of us. CONFORM!!!!

On a more serious note, it's interesting that Johnson still has the tendency to produce such polarized opinions to this day, even on an internet forum. He would be delighted.

 

Which Star Wars character is full of excuses, and is thin? Maybe C.M. Clay should be C3-PO.

 

Very good points, I can only agree with! Good post, mendoza!

 

Johnson and Hart were the best contenders in 1905/6. Jeffries avoided both of them by retiring--and it would have been great if he hadn't, since we would have had a better idea of who the real champ was (as opposed to seeing Burns holding the heavyweight title while Hart and Johnson lay in the wings).

Like I said, though, Jeffries did not duck Hart or Johnson. He retired because he got tired of boxing and wanted to settle down--he would have fought them if the money/motivation was there, as his later fight against Johnson proves.

 

The Haines fight was a robbery. Johnson ko'd him in the first fight, but Haines benefited from a long lount. Haines was down for over two minutes, but the ref counted slowly. Haines never really beat Johnson. And except for the Hart fight, all these losses came before Johnson's prime, which is really what counts, isn't it? And even considering the Hart fight it was highly controversial in and of itself as most people who witnessed the fight though Johnson won clearly.:good

 

Down for two minutes? I doubt this. How about a source for once? Johnson quit on his stool after getting pounded by Klondine Haines. Later in his career, Joshnon quit again vs Jim " batling " Johnson. He was also Ko'd by one punch by Choynski.

So we have an all time great who quit twice, and was Ko'd by one punch. There is no other all time great hall of fame fighter in the history of boxing that can make this dubious claim, CM Clay.

Johnson lost and drew to many fighters long after he had 20 or so fights under his belt. Read my posts. After 20 or so fights, a fighter is no longer " green ". He is a veteran. Keep up with the excuses that are never backed up by facts, C.M. Clay.

 

Jeffries could have continued on for several more fights and defended vs most of the contenders, instead of coming back 6 years later and dropping 100lbs to fight the best(Johnson) without a tune up, Could Ali,Dempsey,Louis,Marciano, or Lewis do that, come back from that condition and time off