Did janitor.....

Im always flattered to see my name dropped in threads im not involved with. But its always the case, that i am being used as a gauge to how big an ******* a person is.:yep

 

"Lazy, playboy, party animal...". I've never heard the great Dempsey described in that way before. Now, John Belushi yes, but...

 

Well said and I agree wholeheartedly. Dempsey was great and even the respected and great himself Ray Arcel said that a prime Dempsey would have beaten Ali and Frazier. What is never said is that until Dempsey, noone had ever seenhandspeed like Jack had. I have 5 books on the guy as well as about 50 books on overall boxing and heavweight history and noone takes the guy lightly except the clown that wrote "Kings of the Ring". They say in a lot of books and old newspaper clippings that Dempsey's hands were a blur. Combine that w/ crippling power, a great chin and the most viscious blackout killer instinct in the sport's history (of this there is little doubt if you read anough history by the historians), and you have a hard man to fight. The films of the fighters of yesteryear (of which I have many) are not the great film and timing of the films from the 70's on, so you don't really see in real time the action. Just time the fightfilms of that time and they are invariably off of today's timing.

 

the best footage of dempsey we have available to us today is probly him sparring big bill, IMO. But it would be great to see him pre-1919, if the fulton fight does still exist, it sucks that is hasnt been released yet, it maybe only 18 seconds but it is considered one of his best fights in his whole career by many historians.

This extract from an article by Mike Casey sums up the Fulton fight and how it was seen as an amazing display from Dempsey:

'Back in the summer of that year, on July 27 at Harrison, New Jersey, Jack had conceded nearly twenty pounds to the hard-hitting Fred Fulton and destroyed him in just a fraction over eighteen seconds. A sharp intake of breath was heard across America and not just from the easily impressed.

When Fulton crashed to the canvas, writer Robert Edgren was sitting close enough at ringside to be able to reach out and touch the fallen giant. Edgren, as knowledgeable and eloquent a scribe as there ever was on boxing, was objective yet lavish in his praise for the lithe and vicious young tiger of a man who had inflicted the damage.
Now Edgren completely understood what sparring partner Chief Turner had said of Dempsey. “This is the most wonderful fighter I have ever seen,” revealed the Chief. “I think I have done mighty well to last through a week of training with him. He’s an awful hitter.”

Edgren wrote: “Dempsey makes the same impression on trainer or fighter. He is not a boxer in the ordinary sense of the word. And yet it is foolish to say that he doesn’t know how to box. He is a natural boxer. He uses his hands as naturally as a tiger uses its claws.

“The Dempsey fight against Fulton was the finest exhibition of the fighting art that I have ever seen, for Dempsey didn’t waste a single movement in the short time it lasted. His action was the soul of simplicity. And fighting effectiveness isn’t in the step-and-tap-and-block taught by boxing instructors, but in direct action along the lines of mechanical force.

“Bob Fitzsimmons was the greatest master of that. And if this Dempsey lad continues as he has begun, he will eclipse even the great Bob.”

Emphasising Dempsey’s economy of movement, Edgren noted that the Mauler covered the minimum of ground in the short time it took him to bomb out Fulton. Jack was careful to come out of his corner a little slower than big Fred. Dempsey had advanced just four or five short steps as Fulton met him and missed with a jab. Jack moved forward one step. Fulton tried to tie him up, but as Dempsey wrenched his arms free he fired a left upwards to Fulton’s head. The punch travelled no more than a foot but jerked Fred’s head back and shook him badly. The big man moved out to long range and started backing up towards the ropes. He managed to get a lock on Dempsey’s arms for a few seconds before breaking away and retreating across the ring to his own corner. Jack pivoted and advanced three or four steps to within hitting range. It was then that Robert Edgren observed something that intrigued him.

“Dempsey has a trick of shifting that is similar to that of Fitzsimmons and Stanley Ketchel, except that Jack doesn’t reverse his footing but merely drops his left shoulder back beyond the right and then puts the pivoting swing of his whole body into a two-foot blow.

“Dropping that left shoulder back, Dempsey drove his left fist into Fulton’s body. It was a tremendous blow and Fulton caved in at the waist. Instantly Dempsey whipped another left up to Fulton’s head, knocking him over sideways, and quicker than a flash shot his straight right across to Fulton’s jaw. Fulton fell, completely knocked out, struck in a half-hitting position, neck against the ropes and went on until he lay flat on his shoulder blades.”'

The way the fight is described here, shows how people were impressed with Dempsey at the time, its a real shame its not be seen for like ninety years, sounds like a brilliant fight, all 18 seconds of it.

 

I can understand the argument he was past prime in 1923, although I do not see why anyone would consider the 1920 or 1921 Dempsey Past Prime, when he was 25-26yo and finally able to get a better diet and eat properly. Also bare in mind in 1917-1918 he lost twice to Meehan and in 1917 he lost by first round KO to Flynn. Based on this surely his prime was the 1919-1921 period?

I agree a younger Louis may have ko'd Conn quicker but then again movers would always give Louis stylistic problems

 

All time rankings are sometimes based on resume, not head to head potential. If we are talking resume, then I am going with Joe Louis...and I have him rated above Dempsey on my all-time list for that reason. Now, if we are talking about a head to head match up (prime for prime) Dempsey vs Louis, that could be a different story. I wouldn't count Jack out in such a match, and, as such, he is definitely in the same class as Louis.

 

Il admit Louis looks better on film,its quite hard to see the punches in the fight with firpo for example, with dempsey, the punches that really KO firpo, were thrown from the inside, the man was always inside clinching and punching, plus there was just a lot of brawling its not LOOKING very good, yet Dempsey still rates very highly because of his fighting skill.



BTW, here is the full article containing the extract that I used in my previous post concerning what other old fighters and trainers said about Dempsey, very good read IMO. Has stories and viewpoints from greats such as Arcel, Tunney, Sharkey etc.

http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/casey/MC_DempseyFeature.htm

 

kind of a cute name you have by the way until you realise Ken Norton really did suck - but hey so do you so it kind of fits i guess - loser...your bus is leaving! :smoke

 

Bman100, this article you posted which I have read many times by a great boxing writer Mike Casey,expresses what I wish to convey,but cannot...
Casey's viewpoint was the norm point of view of the great Manassa Mauler from his prime, to the 1950s...It kills me emotionally when todays
ignorant detractors of Jack Dempsey, try to rewrite the greatness of Dempsey,ninety years later, defying the vast majority of hard nosed boxing writers who SAW Dempsey and Joe Louis in their respective primes
...I love Joe Louis as a fighter and a MAN who had dignity and character.
I think that Dempsey in his fast punching prime, had the style to kayo Joe Louis, but I think the Brown Bomber had a more impressive title reign...
And I think Louis could knock out anyone he could hit including Ali,and Dempsey, but styles make fights I believe...
What galls me is not the fact that Louis would beat Dempsey [an opinion
not shared by most who saw both ], could be, but to say that Dempsey
was overated, and was not EVEN in Joe Louis's class, well thyat I cannot abide by...Thanks for posting the article, the memory of Dempsey deserves that....b.b.

 

Louis KO1 Dempsey

 

Good points, Burt. I had the pleasure of speaking with Jack on more than one occasion. I found him to be a class act all the way. I asked him once about a Dempsey - Louis fight. He said: "I can tell you one thing for sure! With 2 punchers in there like Joe and I, it's not going to the cards the way that computer had it! What? Joe and I both lost our punches in that fight?" (...referring to the Murray Woroner computer outcome, in the late 60's, where Jack defeated Joe by a 15 round decision.)

 

Dempsey's prime did not end in 1919 like some claim.

I think his prime was 1918-1921. During thsos years, he was active and fighting and busy, also in shape, and retain his speed and skills.

Once his break started in 1922, was when he was past prime imo.

 

He is with me No 3, Louis no 4. I'm not much of a consensus guy .

 

First of all, to bring up the arguement that Willie Meehan beat Jack Dempsey twice in 1917,is not a valid point in determining the ability of Jack Dempsey ar 22 years of age..
For Pete's sake they were FOUR round bouts,and Willie Meehan was a rubber ball smothering fighter...Were they to have fought the normal
rounds o0f a fight Dempsey would have certainly caught up to Meehan and destroyed him in a ten or more round bout....
Louis would have lost to Pastor, Conn, Walcott, Godoy etc,after four rounds...Ali to Norton, and others after four rounds, so the old bromide
that Dempsey was overated because "he lost to Fat Willie Meehan ",
is silly....Every Great Fighter in history would have lost many bouts
after four rounds, no doubt...
As for Dempsey's ko loss to Flynn in 1917--His first wife who divorced Dempsey claimed that Dempsey threw that fight because of "money
problems", at there their trial proceedings in court...True or not, Dempsey
one year later flattened Fireman Flynn in one round...

 

He certainly became that way in the 1920s when he discovered Hollywood no?

No one is questioning Dempseys toughness/hard work he went through during the teen years to get on top.

A bit like Rocky III saga. "You ain't been hungry since ya won the belt!"