Did Jerry Quarry became underrated ?

Fair points Ronny, one might say as right as rain.

 

If the debate is ‘ did George choose the Norton fight because to him it was a better payday’ (due to tax reasons) then this is doubtful. The offer of $1 million to fight Quarry (originally for a summer bout) had become $1 million or 40% of the receipts for George, whereas when the fight with Kenny was signed in January, the venue wasn’t yet decided- and at the time of signing it may have even remained in the US (with Jamaica and Brazil also mooted) but Venezuela came into play later.

So the Quarry offer at signing time was still looking like the better offer and while it’s true the Norton negotiations were happening at the time of the Shavers fight, the bout wasn’t signed- and were the negotiations deeper at that time than they were with Quarry anyway? Maybe, maybe not, but the fight wasn’t signed for another month anyway and at the time of signing there was no tax-free guarantee- unless this was King stuffing more brown envelopes with cash.

Do i think Foreman preferred to fight Norton over Quarry? Yes, this seems very likely, and isn’t the proof in the pudding anyway- this is the bout they picked. There’s no doubt Jerry sought a bout with George way before he was champion too- he was often calling him out and this may have been borne out of their sparring sessions- even though they were before George turned pro. He was always complimentary about George’s strength, so that made an impression on him and did state that he thought Foreman hadn’t improved that much and his power overcame other deficiencies. The Quarry fight was offered to George in 1970 and 1972.


I think most of us would pick George to win their fight, in fairness but it’d very likely go longer than the Norton fight. Quarry definitely had a better reputation for the strength of his chin at that time. Eddie Futch said many years later that he would have kept Kenny away from that fight as he “tightened up in front of big punches”, maybe Eddie’s being wise after the event. But Boxing News preview of this fight is that, while it’s complimentary to Kenny as a more than worthy opponent, it states that his “there have been questions about his durability", so this wasn't being wise after the event.


Funny enough, it was the Norton fight that gave George his reputation as the unbeatable monster (at least to many in the US anyway) helped Kenny’s previous success vs Ali. It’d be interesting if it was Quarry he’d beaten, how the Rumble would have been viewed. I don’t think they’d have gone so overboard myself (although Boxing News definitely didn’t).

 

Oh and Happy New Year everyone...may this be the year where you all devote at least 4 hours per week watching Jimmy Young footage.

 

I wouldn't doubt that Quarry had expressed interested in fighting George before '73, especialy in the years you mention, given they are either the years or close to when he lost his own World Championship bids. But it seems to me that it was only in '73 that a fight between them became a serious and realistic proposition, with the push mainly coming from Clancy via Brenner.

It also seems obvious to me that Foreman was looking for a tax break/deferral by fighting abroad, to take home as much cash as possible. There were rumors, around the time Quarry, Norton (and Lyle) were in the picture, that Foreman was suffering financially. It's also worth noting that not one of Foreman's [first-career] World Championship fights took place in the US.

Even with a $1Million purse attached to the Quarry offer, this would have translated into much, much less of a net pay figure, with the Federal tax rate (as well as the State and City tax rates of New York) being what it was in the 70s.

I'm fairly convinced the money had a lot to do with Team Foreman's selection and, with Quarry being tied to the Garden, that match was very unlikely to be made.

 

Yes, but that's because of refusals from Foreman's camp. It was mooted before Quarry vs Bodell and after this KO, in his post-fight interview Jerry said they're going to fight and he wanted it to be in London. Foreman's camp lost interest but that's no big deal, they had their own route to the title shot, which turned out to be the right one.

Yes, George also said he was broke after Tokyo too, so some of this money wasn't filtering his way. And he probably was seeking a tax break but he still signed for the Norton fight when there was a chance it would take place in the US.

Yes, if the 700k tax-free amount was known at the signing of the fight time, and this was a better deal than the chunk the IRS would take, then it may have been superior net income for George (but maybe not 40% of the receipts which was the other option). But as mentioned there was still a good chance it would happen in the US, even Cleveland- King's hometown- something he would later convince Ali to do.

Maybe, but Arum's claims (and later Quarry's) that it was black/white issue about Quarry's negotiable fights in 1974 may have some merit too (which included a 3rd fight with Ali at MSG in May 74 as a big payday before the Rumble, which KIng also hijacked). I hardly think Foreman was scared of Quarry, of course not, but i still think he thought Norton would be an easier fight for him- and it couldn't have been much easier.

 

Yes, although I assume you are aware of the backstory to that challenge and the involvement of Marty Erlichman, which likely set the cat amongst the pigeons, as far as Sadler was concerned, and killed any notion of the fight going ahead?

The fight was signed without an agreed venue (or even a promoter, I believe) and the only people talking about a US venue were Norton's people. Foreman wasn't being pinned down. Ten days after signing, El Poliedro Arena in Caracas was announced as the venue.

I would wager heavily on there being more chance of the fight falling through than it ever having taken place in the US.

With Jerry, it would have been MSG. Period.

This needs to be a consideration here since Foreman clearly had options left open to him with the Norton deal, whereas with Quarry, the venue would have been set and not likely negotiable.

As mentioned earlier, even with the tax agreement with the Venezuelan government having been reneged upon, Foreman was better off financially than had he fought in the US. That is to suggest that any country that had a lower tax rate would have been the aim.

And, again, as previously mentioned above it was only other people talking about a US venue. In short, I don't think there was a chance that it would have happened in the US at that time. I think the delay in Foreman finally getting a worthwhile fight arranged was financially driven and heavily influenced by the divorce proceedings, of which he was then in the midst, and an overseas venue had always been his intention.

I have no doubt that Foreman would have fought Quarry under different circumstances, but there are a myriad of factors that could have prevented the fight from coming off - some of them intangible. Nonetheless, the fact remains that Foreman ended up fighting a highly rated Heavyweight at the time in Norton who, notwithstanding Quarry's recent form, also had a much better record against Ali than did Quarry.

I also don't discount that Quarry, while not being so much frozen out, was not given the proper consideration during this period. Simultaneously, I suspect that Quarry had backed himself into a commercial corner by way of his relationship with Clancy and Brenner, although I'd like to understand that area a bit more.

 

Haha. Just watching 10 mins of The Mighty Jimmy Young seems like 4 hours - hopefully that can count as the prescribed weekly allotment. Actually, if you can find the Shavers fights I’d be happy to watch those a few times over...I think.

Happy NY to you also, old chum.

 

40% of receipts could well have been a tidy sum, considering that Quarry's KO of Shavers might make it extra interesting for many. I don't think that would be more of a leap of faith than 700 k and maybe a venue somewhere that meant tax breaks.

And wasn't talks with Quarry in motion already when Foreman chose Roman instead? So that he got bumped two times despite brining good money as a challenger.

 

My 0.2$ Jerry was one tough SOB who took a rough road to living the dream.

 

It definitely appears the more concrete offer to me.

Yes, he was bumped earlier...and bumped again after the Roman fight when George himself said "we should have a contract signed by the end of the week", but he was known to be difficult at this time when negotiating.

Hard to blame George for the Jo-king fight, easy money, first defence. But Roman had dropped out the organisations' top 10s when the fight was trying to be made...and hey presto, they want the fight, so he's back in! Although nothing unusual about that- he had a 'w' against Terrible Terry Daniels after all.

 

Btw was the choice either 1 mil or 40% or whichever turned ut to be higher after the fight?

 

Early 1973 Teddy Brenner tried desperately to sign a Foreman-Quarry match for MSG NY, After Big George's Frazier massacrye and Quarry's victory over undefeated strong man Ron Lyle. George a much better buisnessman then he'll ever be given credit for, was not fighting in the U.S FOR TAX REASONS ALONE.

1972 Quarry wanted to fite Foreman in London after ko'ng their Champion Jack Bodell in 64 seconds.

 

Here's Eddie chasing Foreman after Norton beat Ali -

Futch said Foreman is the goal before the end of the year. Norton has fast hands for a big fellow and i think he'd out box Foreman all the way.

Oops. Over the year I've noticed Eddie, who i rate top shelf, talking the odd bit of malarkey and backtracking. He was extremely vocal before Bobick took on Norton and certainly paid for that one. We do seem to only hear about the successes but I've tracked down plenty of failures as well.

https://www.newspapers.com/image/15...gzQ2v9Yh-8_q0c1ie20mn5Q&clipping_id=118073213

 

I've always thought Quarry would've been a tough assignment for Foreman, Quarry's record vs big punchers speaks for itself wins over Shavers, Lyle, M.Foster, Quarry also dominated Mathis who was 6'3 235 pounds.

Now looking at Quarry's losses during his prime he lost to Ali twice, Ellis, Frazier, and finally Chuvalo which was a strange one Quarry was winning the fight and then got knocked down and seemed totally coherent and miscounted the referee's count.

Ali, Ellis, are movers, Frazier is a swarmer, and Chuvalo is an iron chinned brawler.

None of these fights really tell us about how Foreman/Quarry would pan out because styles make fights, Quarry is a good counter puncher with a fairly solid chin and at his best could stick to a very good gameplan like when he outboxed Lyle easily for 12 rounds.

I think if Quarry was in the form he was in vs Lyle then i think he gives Foreman all he could handle, i'm not saying i would necessarily favour Quarry but i think it would be one of Foreman's toughest tests.

 

If Big George is allowed to push the fight ends in one.