Did Jim Jeffries defend his belt 2 more times in 1901?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Feb 12, 2008.


  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    [url]http://books.google.com/books?id=aF8wAAAAIAAJ&pg=PT533&lpg=PT533&dq=jeffries+vs+joe+kennedy&source=web&ots=yKtxrXiewq&sig=ASslGfjLr_AmOXvbwEuATopiFAo#PPT533,M1[/url]

    This link is the Tribune Almanac for 1901. On page 233 it lists the notable boxing fights in 1901.

    If has Jeffries down for a TKO 3 over Hank Griffin on 9-17-1901 ( I thought it was Jeffries UD 4 )

    It also has Jeffries down for a KO 2 over Joe Kennedy on 9-24-1901. I have read this one was a 10 count KO.

    While there were many sparring exhibition matches in those days, the difference between a real match and an exhibition is there are almost never multiple knockdowns or knockouts in exhibition matches.

    Were these real matches or not? The almanac says they were.
     
  2. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Jim Jeffries vs Joe Kennedy read:

    [url]http://www.antekprizering.com/kennedysp.html[/url]
     
  3. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Hasnt a book on Jeffries recently been done by a poster?What did he say on the subject?
     
  4. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    I think Apollack is doing a new Jeffries book. The event happening on the Kennedy fight is not in question at all. The question is it an exhibition match or not. Maybe not. Like I said it was a KO win from a hard punch, and the fighters were not " going through the motions ". This one sounds like an official win to me.

    As for the Hank Griffin fight, that one happened too. I thought it was a four round match that ended with Jeffries scoring a few knockdowns, and Griffin lasting the distance. The Almanac says its a 3rd round TKO win for Jeffries. I think the Almanac is wrong, and Jeffries took the decision in four rounds. My questions on this match were what were Jeffries comments about sharing the ring as champion with a known black fighter in 1901?

    If Apollack is doing a Jeffries book, I would like information on Jeffries in Europe. It has been reported that Jeffries KO'd several fighters in Europe. Who were the fighters he KO’d? I suppose you need a Brittish or French newspaper to get the information.
     
  5. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I beleive Jeff toured here and put on exhibitions ,Johnson fought a couple in my town.I,ll try and dig up anything I can on Jeffries.
     
  6. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yes, I am working on a Jeffries book. For my official answer to these questions, please wait for it. But for now, these bouts were considered exhibitions, sort of on the line of the old John L. Sullivan exhibitions. Jeff contracted to attempt to knock them out in 4 rounds. Jeff DID NOT KO Griffin. Griffin lasted the 4 rounds by using survival tactics - running, grabbing, dropping multiple times and taking counts, a la Tug Wilson. Kennedy tried to fight more rather than just survive and as a result got knocked out. Because these were not official title fights per se, which at that time were 20 or 25 rounds at least (if not to the finish), boxing Griffin was not seen as a violation of the color line because Jeff was not technically giving Griffin an opportunity at the title. Of course, IF Griffin were to have knocked Jeff out, I'm sure history would have been dramatically altered. Ultimately, the bouts were viewed as glorified tune ups for the upcoming real title fight against Gus Ruhlin.
     
  7. Langford

    Langford Active Member Full Member

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    interesting that Kennedy was a tune up for Ruhlin, when Kennedy had beat Ruhlin a year or so before. Interesting also that if pressed Jeffries could take out what seems to be a reasonable, undocumented journeyman in only a couple of rounds when he had too.

    good luck with book four, Pollack. Keep looking under those rocks and stones and see if you can uncover a Jeffries vs. Martin. "exhibition".
     
  8. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    There is an interesting disconnect here. Box rec has many official 3 and 4 round fights for other fighters. Some of them were significant colored title matches. If the title was on the line via stoppage, these 3 or 4 round fights should be considered official matches as the 1901 Almanac quotes.
     
  9. Marciano Frazier

    Marciano Frazier Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Do you really think two actual world heavyweight championship fights would've been so heavily under-publicized that hardly anyone would know for generations that they weren't exhibitions?
     
  10. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Not all world title fights were heavily publicized, expecialy the ones that ended quickly.

    There were many 3 or 4 round matches in those days. I beleive the sparring contests and exbitions were events that ended up with both guys on their feet. It appears that Keneddy and Jeffries were tyring to win, and there was a KO here.You just don't see KO's in exhibitions becuase they are controled events. Regarding the publicity, the article says the match took palce before a packed house. I have seen boxing cards that refer to this as a win on Jeffries record.
     
  11. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    :bump:bump

    Here is a link of a Jeffries card printed a few years after the Kennedy fight. It lists the fight as one of his most important wins.

    [url]http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-T218-HASSAN-BOXING-CARDS-JAMES-J-JEFFRIES_W0QQitemZ320078326825QQihZ011QQcategoryZ37795QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQ_trksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting[/url]


    This content is protected
     
  12. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    I am 90% certian the Kennedy fight was for real. Here is a full news read:

    [url]http://www.loc.gov/chroniclingamerica/lccn/sn85066387/1901-09-25/ed-1/seq-4[/url]
     
  13. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    My eyes aren't quite up to reading that newspaper account.

    In the old Ring Record Book, Nat Fleischer listed the Finnegan, Kennedy, and Griffin fights, but did not list them as championship fights. I know that some papers, and I read one, I think the SF Examiner, considered Hank Griffin in 1901 to have defeated Jeffries as he lasted four rounds.
    I don't know what would have happened if Griffin or Kennedy or later Munroe would have ko'd Jeffries. They undoubtedly would have claimed the title but I doubt this would have been widely accepted unless they duplicated the feat in an accepted championship match.
    Without official sanctioning bodies or state athletic boards, there were a great many "gray area" fights which seem to fall somewhere between exhibitions and real matches.
    Frankly, whether these bouts are considered championship bouts or not does not matter much to Jeff's all time standing. Finnegan should not have been in the ring with the champion in a serious bout. Kennedy was a journeyman. Griffin fought only to survive, dropping to the canvas several times without being hit.
     
  14. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    You can blow up the news print by hitting the " + " button.

    Its a good read on the fight. Other fighter who saw the event also comment.
     
  15. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I can blow it up but it gets too blurry to read. Maybe it is my computer.

    Could you quote the lines that indicate this was viewed as a championship fight?