Did Jim Jeffries defend his belt 2 more times in 1901?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Feb 12, 2008.


  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Headline: Champion Jeffries stops Kennedy in a round and a half

    Opening line: A championship fight...

    KO: Jeffries glove traveled three inches, lifted Kennedy clean off the floor, and dropped him between the ropes. He was completely out while the ten seconds tolled off and had to be assisted to his corner

    Other notables, corner men were listed for both fighters. Ruhlin was there to get a look as he signed to fight Jeffries late. Referee was E. J. Smith.
     
  2. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I understood Kennedy was the chief sparring partner for Jeffries,while it is unusual for Champs to ko their spar mates in exhibitions ,Louis did it a few times,maybe Kennedy got a little frisky,I note Johnson kod him in 4 a year later.Kennedy has a couple of good results on his early resume ,a win over Ruhlin and a draw with Childs and a win over Fred Russell,but a ko by Maher probably puts him in perspective.I would be inclined to think it was an exhibition,eitherway it doesnt affect Jeffries standing ,imo.
     
  3. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Kennedey said he had a plan to box for two rounds then mix it. There were three full cornerman for each fighter, a referee, plus an under card.

    The 1901 Almanac, boxing cigar cards of the time, plus newspapers think Jeffries vs Kennedy was a normal fight. Sparring sessions do not get a lot of ink like the one this report gives.

    It seems like a real fight. While Kennedy by himself is does not build a legacy for anyone, brutal knockouts and additional title defenses do. I think Jeffries has a few un-documented fights that should go on his record. Kennedy is one of them.

    The good news is this! The USA library of Congress is in the process of archiving newspapers from every state. One can view any paper on line. There is too much to re-search, and many forgotten treasure to re-discover. There are perhaps but 20 or so hard core re-searchers out there( I am not one of them ) , and most of them re-search the old fashioned way with limited data in libraries. . Now a re-search will have access to 100X the information, and the re-search is can be done in the comfort of one’s home via personal computer.
     
  4. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Mendoza--How many rounds was the fight scheduled for?

    Also, major championship fights against Fitz, Sharkey, and Corbett got front page coverage in the San Francisco papers. That this fight was widely covered does not exactly mean it was viewed as a championship fight. Nat Fleischer was aware of this fight, but did not view it as a championship fight. Why not?
    When Fleischer died, The Ring Record Book downgraded it to an exhibition. Why? I don't think they had any ax to grind against Jeffries.
     
  5. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Historians back then did not have access to the internet, or news papers outside of his home town.

    [FONT=&quot]Fitz, Sharkey and Corbett were far more famous than Kennedy was. So of course they got more press.

    Boxing owes Fleisher a great deal. He was the man who started the ring record book in 1942. Sure it has errors, but in a Marco sense, it is a herculean effort by one man who did not have the type of research tools that we have today. When Fleisher died, boxing lost a piece of its history with him. Data got lost as time passed. Some of it was revised. With the invention of the internet, modern day historians can find new fights, or confirm older fights.

    This was not a friendly sparring match at all. It was an organized event. The report is very detailed. More detailed than any sparring session I have ever read. The champion was in the ring, his seconds, and Kennedy’s seconds were there. I do not know how many rounds it was scheduled for, but the paper said the ending was sudden, which hints a much longer fight was scheduled.

    Did you read the full report I posted?
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  6. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    "You just don't see KO's in exhibitions because there are controled events."

    Louis and Dempsey had all sorts of KO's in exhibitions.

    Some:
    Dempsey
    July 18, 1922 Elziar Rioux KO 1
    June 3, 1924 Rock Stragmalia KO 2
    The 1976 Ring Record Book refers to 15 KO's in exhibitions by Dempsey while he was champion.

    Louis
    July 11, 1941 Jim Robinson KO 1
    Nov 3, 1944 Johnny Denson KO 2
    Nov 24, 1948 Ray Augustus KO 2
    The 1976 Ring Record Book list many exhibitions for Louis and quite a few knockouts, many after he had "retired". His most prominent KO victims in exhibitions were Elmer Ray and Pat Valentino.
     
  7. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Yes, but the news read says Kennedy tired to win and landed his best. I've never seen an exbition match get a long news read, with all seconds present, and also listed as real fights by almanac's and boxing cards.

    Read the report I posted.
     
  8. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Fleischer did do in depth interviews with Jeffries, though, and he is a primary source.
    Also, there were archives of newspapers in what was called the morgue and how can you be certain Fleischer never visited. I did in the old days, although not to look up anything about sports.

    George Foreman fought 5 men in one day on ABC back in 1975. If you saw the film, it would look like real fights, but they were exhibitions.
    Look at the film of Louis' brutal knockout of Valentino in an exhibition.

    Fleischer put out his first Ring Record Book in 1942. Why didn't people who attended Jeff's fight with Kennedy come forward and point out his mistake?

    What did Jeffries himself say about this fight in his autobiography?

    Munroe obviously tried to win against Jeffries in an exhibition.
     
  9. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    I do not know the answers to these questions. Most of the adults who saw the 1901 Jeffries vs Kennedy match might have passed by 1942, or been too old to care or comment.

    What's left is the news reads, photos, almanacs, and such. They point to it being a real match. This is what historians have to go on.

    Nat's first ring record book was a flawed masterpiece. On one hand, there was never anything quite like it before. On the other hand, it had some errors in it. Did Nat miss some fights? Sure.

    I think Jeffries did talk a bit about the Kennedy match in his bio, but Fitz, Corbett, and Sharkey got the lion's share of his attention.
     
  10. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    You should contact Tracy Callis over at Cyberboxing. Jeff fought at least 120 exhibitions, many with Joe Kennedy. Give him your evidence and see what he says.
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    You seem rather desperate to add bouts to Jeffries recordi n spite of the fact that it looks like the bout was just as described an exhibition,I,m sure Fleischer ,who was diligent at finding the truth would have mentioned this if it was classed as a real bout,my feeling is Kennedy got a little ambitious and Jeff put him in his place ,Louis kod Valentino,and other Champs stopped men in exhibitions ,doesnt make them real fights ,of championship contests,think I might by Appollacks book when it comes out ,hopefully he has the lowdown,if you are correct we will all eat crow.
     
  12. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

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    What is a REAL fight? Were Sullvan's bouts where he was attempting to knock his foe out within 4 rounds real? If so, then the Jeffries-Kennedy bout was a real fight. If Jeff scores a KO2, does it matter whether it was scheduled for 4 rounds or 25? That said, if it went 4 rounds, Jeff did not stand to lose the title on a decision. Kennedy would simply have "won" in the sense that he would win a monetary bonus for lasting the 4 rounds (actually, Jeff might have withdrawn that offer), as did Hank Griffin when he lasted the 4 rounds. Kennedy knew this, knew Jeff was going to try to stop him, and said he would do his best to fight and not simply survive as Griffin did. That said, if Kennedy had knocked Jeff out, I'm sure everyone would call him the champ. So call it what you want, but it is what it is. Two men entered, one man left, so to speak. They fought. It was no friendly sparring affair.
     
  13. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    I sent him a message. He thinks it was a real fight with both guys trying to win.
     
  14. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Could you ask him why he lists this fight as an exhibition?

    Also, if you do this for Jeff, what about the other champions? Dempsey and Louis? What about Max Baer who on December 28, 1934, knocked out King Levinsky, then the #5 rated heavyweight, in 2 rounds. Should this now be considered a championship fight?
     
  15. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    A lot of early exhibitions turned into live fire afairs.

    Just look how many of Joe Louis's exhibitions ended with his partner being draged out by their ankles.