Did Jim Jeffries duck somebody?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by MaccaveliMacc, Feb 15, 2025.


  1. MaccaveliMacc

    MaccaveliMacc Boxing Addict Full Member

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    For decades before Joe Louis, a lot of people considered James J. Jeffries the heavyweight GOAT. The question for those who studied the era: did he ever duck somebody? To me it seems like he took on allcomers. We're of course talking about white fighters as the color line thing was unfortunately real.
     
  2. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Ignoring race, Jack Johnson deserved a title shot around 1903/4.
     
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    When he picked Munroe he could have picked Johnson and had it be the better pick for his legacy. I think he would have won too (though Johnson had a very good chance also). I would say that Johnson absolutely was not established as a clear threat to Jim's title though. He was a little underpacked to be calling Jeffries out (and didn't from memory, at the Monroe fight). Still, it was one of those ones where the scales were beginning to tip. Jim should have met Johnson twice and retired, if he had beaten him twice, hard to imagine anything cleaner and as I say, I suspect he would have been capable - but the colour line, Jeffries being of his time, Jeffries enormous status by comparison, all made side-stepping Johnson easier. That's a better way to put it than "ducked" though.
     
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  4. HistoryZero26

    HistoryZero26 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    No. Most fighters around in his latter reign who would have destroyed him in their prime were prospects whether that be Langford, Johnson, Kaufman or Lang. Denver Ed Martin was the only new opponent there was momentum for Jeffries to fight during his later reign and when he started losing there was no one. Johnson hadn't won half his fights when he first won the "colored" title developing into a threat took time. And the same would go for anyone Jeffries could have fought in 1902-1904. Its a similar situation with Tunney where we hold him not fighting certain guys he could have fought against him based on information we have that people in that time period did not.

    Theres also the fact the immediate next generation of HWs was the smallest in history to the point LHW was scrapped because there was no purpose for it. Schreck, Gardner, Root and Hart were all LHWs during Jeffries later reign and Burns and Jack Twin Sullivan were MWs. These guys were all better than Jeffries and most would have beaten him but the public would have viewed these guys very presence as proof of Jeffries dominance as opposed to clamoring for Jeffries to fight them. We see this attitude sorta mantifested when Burns wins the belt.
     
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  5. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    We don't need to speculate too hard about his motives, because he laid them out explicitly, and apparently lacked the imagination to tell some face saving lie.

    He made it very clear that he was drawing the color bar, and he also made it equally clear that he was doing this, because he didn't want to lose to a black fighter.

    He wasn't necessarily scared of any black fighter in particular, just the prospect of being the first man who lost the title to a black fighter.

    Therefore he would not meet a black opponent, whether they were a hopeless underdog, or a legitimate threat to him.

    However so long as the opponent was white, he seemingly didn't care if they were a polar bear.
     
  6. HistoryZero26

    HistoryZero26 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "just the prospect of being the first man who lost the title to a black fighter."

    Slavin sweating nervously.
     
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  7. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I think he retired because he didn't relish the possibility that a black fighter might beat him, Johnson most likely,. I don't think in fairness he ducked anybody specifically, definitely not Hart, Root, Kaufman(!) etc,
     
  8. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    His championship reign was during an exceedingly weak 5 year window with some old timer hangers-on in Fitz and Corbett (and even Goddard and Jackson and a Choynski who likely beat him) and the arrival of the Black Dynamite in the McVea, Jeanette and Johnson. Sometimes legacy is all about timing.
     
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  9. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    I would say that he ducked Johnson who was eligible through 03/04 but also in 05 - but Johnson was made to jump through yet another futile and never ending hoop in the form of Marvin Hart.

    Jeffries bided his time not to allow for proof of Johnson’s outstanding credentials and then duly grant him a title shot - no, those credentials were already there - Jeff wanted no part of Johnson, full stop.

    Jeffries merely waited and hoped for Johnson’s failure after a long, successful run.

    If Johnson had been awarded the decision in the Hart fight (which he should’ve been - but the ref was more crooked than a dogs hind legs), Jeffries made it clear he wasn’t going to fight him anyway.

    That Jeffries ducked Johnson isn’t revisionism.

    There was plenty written and lampooned via cartoons as at the time that clearly upheld the increasing and strong feel that Jeffries was hiding behind the colour line in order to avoid facing Johnson.

    Jeffries sat on the title until after Johnson lost the decision to Hart, then shortly thereafter Jeffries retired - AS IF Johnson’s burst bubble somehow saved Jeffries face and his obvious, hitherto ducking of Johnson.

    Would Jeffries had won IF he fought Johnson prior to his retirement in 1905?

    Personally, I don’t think so, not least for the fact that Johnson had the right style to defeat Big Jim - though Johnson would’ve had a tougher fight on his hands than he did in 1910.
     
  10. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    I’d say those guys were at least medium twitched
     
  11. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Those three were definitely fast twitched.
     
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