Did Liston blind Ali in their first bout?

My opinion is yes. It was a standard mob trick. The same thing happened to Marciano in the first Walcott fight--the odds had evened out just before the fight, and Marciano's manager (not Wiel, Allie Columbo) told him to beware the fix before the fight. Marciano investigated it after and was convinced to the day he died that Blinky Palermo, who was tight with Walcott's manager, was behind it.

Don't mean to make this another Marciano thread, but the point is that this was a standard trick, and it is even know what they used and how they did it. They used capsicum Vaseline, and they would rub it not in the fighter's gloves, but towards the armpit, so that the receiving fighter would get it in his eyes in the clinches, or wipe it in his eyes from his own glove.

However, I of course have no proof, just as Ali and Marciano had no proof.

 

Joe Polino...Liston's assistant trainer told Jack McKinney of the Philadelphia Daily News..."Between the 3rd and 4th round of the first Ali fight...he said that Liston told him to "juice" the gloves. He said that they did that when Sonny was in danger of losing. He said they did that in the fights with Eddie Machen and Cleveland Williams. He said it was a "stinging" solution but was but did not specify what was in it. Two days after the first Ali/Liston fight in Miami in Feb.1964...Eddie Machen said: "The same thing happened when I fought Liston in 1960.I thought my eyes would burn out of my head....and Liston seemed to know that it would happen. They would rub something on Sonny's shoulders...and it would get into your eyes when you got into the clinches"...From the book: "The Night The Referee Hit Back: Memorable Moments from The World Of Boxing" by Mike Silver.

 

So a ringside judge somehow managed to approach Ali and get close enough to him to stick a finger in his eye?

Yes, Angelo working the corner could do it. He had Ali’s trust. He could say ‘open your eye, let me check it’ and Ali would go along with it. Some judge is going to be able to poke a finger in his eye and Ali wouldn’t blink or look away?

Have you ever had someone try to poke you in the eye? It’s not even a voluntary response to avoid it. No way this happened.

 

Inadvertently or on purpose, Ali's reactions indicated there was something affecting his eyes.
It's on film.....

 

I’m sure that’s exactly what Ali thought: ‘I just won the title, I got a good purse — hey ringside judge, feel free to poke your finger in my eye.’

Tell you what, go find a rich world champion boxer and try to stick your finger in his eye and let us know how he reacts.

In the meantime, give us a list of world champions who got thumbed in fights who said, ‘I was happy to let him do that, I have a nice bank account and a belt.’

 

This has been debunked many times.

This subject is just like Jason Voorhees.

Even after you’ve stabbed it, shot it, burnt it and blown it up - just give it some time, and this subject will suddenly sit bold upright from a supine position and stand tall - to terrorise us all again.

Ki, Ki, Ki,

Son, Son, Son

Speaking of “Thumbinators”, I believe one will find Larry Holmes’ photo alongside all written definitions for that term.

 

I think it was Steve Farhood that once said "Holmes has the most educated thumb in all of boxing".

"Thumbinator"

One of his sparring partners actually sued him saying his thumbing over 100 odd spars blinded him in the eye after he ended up with a detached retina. Be awful hard to prove tho no matter how likely it was.

 

Many wax lyrical about Larry’s jab whilst ignoring his ATG Thumb.

We need a thread to rank The Top 10 Best Thumbs.

# 1 is already locked down, of course. We just need to sort # 2 to # 10.

 

Fritzie Zivic was renowned but his was blatantly obvious too.

 

Nope Marciano was blinded by his own corner,from liniment they put on the cut on his hairline caused by him butting Walcott.they hit his face with a sponge and spread the liniment all over his eyes.Weill had everybody going crazy with his antics and was eventually told to leave the corner.Colombo never managed Rocky.

Freddie Brown ,brought in as cut man saved the day by applying little sponges of cold water on Rocky's eyes.

Felix Bochicchio, Walcott's manager was tight with Blinky Palermo?
Not as tight as Al Weill, Rocky's manager was with Frankie Carbo,Palermo's boss! lol

 

Jack McKinney, a 1960s radio talk show host in Philadelphia was an oft-quoted source on Liston, (Methinks too oft.)

So Jack McKinney told that story. The question is whether to believe McKinney.
In the 1960s I used to listen to his late-night radio talk show on WCAU Philadelphia over my miniature transistor radio. He talked about Liston quite frequently. He was fascinated with Sonny. He claimed to have sparred with Sonny, which ..., I mean, come on.

Thirty years later I called McKinney on the telephone to talk about Liston. I was considering writing a book. McKinney's the guy who told the story about Liston's bitter disappointment at not receiving any kind of welcome from Philadelphia fans or officials after knocking out Patterson for the title. In his telling, McKinney was with Liston on the airplane as they landed in Philadelphia and when Liston saw that nobody was there to greet him, his shoulders sagged and he realized the public would never give him a break, that his past would forever define him. The story assumes you accept that McKinney could read Liston's thoughts. I found Jack McKinney to be an entertaining but unreliable storyteller, useful for an anecdote if you weren't a stickler for the unembellished truth.

 

But Ali wasn't blinded in the 4th round?

Again, the ref checked Liston's gloves. Their was nothing. Unless the ref was on the take as well.

You've just made this up. McKinney never mentioned the Williams and Machen bouts.

Correct, Machen just waited four years after their fight to say this for some reason.

Where was this four years earlier when he was making excuses for his loss and trying to get a rematch?

"I don't like to alibi, but I hurt my shoulder six days ago in training and couldn't use my right too well. I want very much to fight him again when I have two hands

 

Nope. The liniment was a standard type used and did not cause blindness.