did liston dive for clay

Fixed fight for sure.....don,t think Clay was in on it though
Liston didn,t want to fight

 

IMO yes.
That second fight stinks...

 

Fight stinks he hardly hit him. he got up on steady legs and Walcott just waved it off

 

I don't think Sonny looked like a man who wanted to fight that night. That does not mean it was fixed though. Sonny looked unenthusiastic. Like Buster Douglas against Holyfeild he did not do himself justice. We won't know if it was deliberate self sabotage or if he was just too dissilusioned to do himself justice.

There was a rematch clause so Sonny had to go through with it. I think a tune up fight could have been a confidence building exercise for Liston. He might have been less intimidated if he got a nice win over another contender like Doug Jones or an Eddie Machen rematch. I don't think an immediate Ali rematch was that good for Sonny, especially after one postponement. Sonny had so few rounds experience in previous fights before the title loss as it was. The postponement effected him.

A good 50% of why the fight was such a farce was Joe Walcott listening to Nat Fleischer. He messed up. That has more to do with making it look as bad as it did than anything else. The knock down was genuine.

We will never know if Sonny was play acting while he was waiting for a count or if he was play acting because he wanted to be counted out. Sonny did get up and he was not hurt enough to stay down as long as he did.

 

I believe Liston came to take a dive.
I believe it was a fix, because Walcott's actions indicated he was in on it.
The Nat Fleischer story doesn't hold water. Walcott had as much knowledge of the rules of boxing as any man alive. He knew Liston had not been counted out.

 

The most surprised man when Liston went down from that punch was Ali.
He immediately stands over him gestures for him to get up and shouts "get up ya bum".
So if anything was going on Ali wasn't in on it.
Liston definitely lay down, why? You can take your pick,he had mob connections, fear of the Black Muslims,or simply Sonny who was a pretty complex character might just not have fancied it. For a man who had always been the intimidator he found it very difficult to deal with Ali both in the ring and mentally.

 

I agree, when you land a ko punch you certainly know and ali knew he hadn't.

 

Yes BUT,
Ali can be seen mouthing "did I hit him?" and back in his corner saying that "he laid down".
Just a couple of minutes later, in his first post fight interview, he was full of bluster about how his split second timing and secret punch had brought Liston down.
Somebody had told him to go along with it and claim it was legitimate. Dundee?

 

mmmm I haven't ever noticed him saying "he laid down" or "did I hit him ??" but it all adds up, thanks for that.

 

By the end of the fight Ali was talking about his new punch, I think it was simply
a case of Ali the opportunist!

 

It was an anchor punch, one I was taught early, and Liston came into it but it simply had nothing on it at all, nothing. Sonny reached a prime condition going into the canceled rematch but when training began again for the rescheduled second go he was just off and his body never came around. Those who viewed him in camp told of him stumbling jumping rope and being banged up and pushed around by his sparring crew. He grew old overnight and never really reached a high note again.

 

I think the Ali camp was in on it. I know Walcott was.
I believe the confusion set in when Liston broke script and went down a couple of rounds before he was supposed to.

 

Walcott didn't wave it off right away, Sonny was up and in the fight again until Joe went by Nat's insistence the bout was over. It may have been the only time a ref has responded that way.

 

Walcott demonstrated his involvement in the fix before that even happened.
The proper call would have been to DQ Ali for repeated refusal to follow the referee's instructions.
Ali refused to go to a neutral corner for a full 17 seconds. After he was in the corner, he returned to the center of the ring before the fight had been signaled to resume.

Walcott knew the rules of boxing as well as anyone did.