did liston dive for clay

It doesn't at all.
I'm just saying Walcott had some dubious connections and episodes his whole life form the 1940s on.
I don't think he was at all crooked as a fighter - although the nature of the Marciano rematch raised some eyebrows, (as did the contract that gave them more money than Rocky got).
But he was crooked in the 1980s, as New Jersey state athletic commissioner. Taking pay-off money.
As for 1965, who knows?
I don't think he 'helped' Liston's case at all, so if he was 'in on it' he failed. I don't see why he would need to be in on such a thing anyway, but it's possible.

 

Walcott was also a professional wrestler about the time he refereed that fight.
He was very familiar and comfortable with fake matches.

 

I don't think it is the only possible answer. The other possible answer is Walcott was a crappy reff.

The time keeper must have went past ten. Fleischer must have noticed this and I imagine he called to Joe that the fight was over. It wasn't. The fight is over when the official in charge says it's over. Not a reporter! But Walcott was intimidated or awe struck. A judge or an official can call out at any time to the referee. Walcott was a great fighter but was nothing more than a celebrity referee, he did not call a time out or anything, he did not know how to officiate. At that level, great fighter though he was, Walcott was a poor a referee, lacking in authority and knowledge of the rules. Leaving fighters unsupervised to talk to a ringside after a knockdown. No doubt from a fighters perspective Joe was extremely knowledgeable but he is proof all great fighters don't make good reffs.

 

The Walcott angle is intresting. Ironic that he was also rematch claused for his one round KO loss too. These rematch clauses were quite bad because the losing fighter was expected to take on a repeat beating. Poor Bobo Olson and Floyd Patterson spring to mind.

I think Heavyweight title fights were a bit too big to fix. That's nit to say there are not more examples of unsatisfactory performances where I think a losing fighter of a huge fight did not do himself justice whilst not necessarily fixes.

Douglas v Holyfeild
Witherspoon v Smith II
Muhammad Ali v Liston II
Liston v Patterson
Moore v patterson
Marciano v Walcott II

 

Liston rolling around on the canvass like he had the fits was the giveaway....the big chump couldnt even act it well.
Anchor punch my arse.dont think ali was in on it.

 

it was lousy play acting but was it play acting while he waited for a count or was it play acting because he wanted to be counted out?

Liston himself said he was not getting up untill Walcott had Ali under control and started counting. Sonny did not trust how crazy Ali might be jumping and running around like that.

 

I think there was an ending planned other than we one we got.
It could have been a controversial TKO, DQ or whatever.
It would have been something designed to set up another rematch.
Walcott's participation would have been required.

Liston decided the hell with it and broke script. Ali was super pissed that Liston went down. He was looking for something else to happen. This is very obvious.

 

How's that scenario obvious? It could be obvious that Ali's surprise was that he wasn't expecting anything to happen.

 

Fleischer's explanation for calling Walcott over was to inform him that Liston had been down for more than ten seconds. With Ali running all over the place, the count should not have begun until he was in a neutral corner, so how long Liston had been down up to that point was irrelevant.

 

Ali was angry that Liston went down.

"Get up you coward...Get up and fight you yellow coward"

Ask yourself: why would a professional fighter be angry that his opponent had gone down?
Think about it.

 

Fleischer denied telling Walcott that. That was Walcott's story.

 

In my opinion there wasn't a fix and Walcott acted incompetently as a referee. Everything he did showed a man who despite being a top boxer had no business or ability to handle Nat, Sonny, or Ali.

 

I'll have to dig through some of my old Ring magazines ....

 

I remember Nat recalling telling Walcott that more then ten seconds had elapsed in a Ring article in the late sixties. I searched from any at the bout who thought he did otherwise or a later denial by Nat but couldn't find anything to dispute what we've been told.

 

Timmers & Choklab's comments ring the most true, the most parsimonious & likely explanations. Ali was enraged that the kd seemed bogus, I heard he added "nobody will believe this". Not that he or Walcott were in on any fix. Sonny was really primed for a rematch, when Ali had to postpone to a medical emergency he deflated, started drinking after unusual absention, lost his edge & focus. It likely was a real flash KD, Sonny disheartened & not anting to get up until Ali was restrained/in the neutral corner, Walcott a great boxer but incompetent referee out of his element & depth, + Fleisher a busybody.