did liston dive for clay

Another thing, once Sonny was up again if he wanted to throw the fight he could have fell into the ropes drunkenly whilst Walcott brushed his gloves or at least have thrown himself down again (if indeed that's what he did for the knockdown) once ALi went for him with that unsupervised series of punches? If he wanted out, that was the second and third chances right there. Instead Walcott called it off on Fleischer's say so.

I conclude that it was a genuine flash knockdown but a combination of Ali's hysterical antics, no count, the Feleischer's interference and Walcott losing control were more responsible for the official result than anything Sonny did.

 

Or he could have just stood there and not fought back .... which is exactly what he did !
It seems to me that Liston took a dive and threw the fight.
If people are going to use arguments along the lines of "He could have done a better job of diving!" to cast doubts on it being as dive, that just strengthens the case of it being an obvious dive.

 

As I've stated earlier he knew Liston had took a dive, but you're saying Ali expected it to happen later.
I say bollocks Ali was surprised Liston went down at all.

 

I don't mean this as an expert as I'm not one, but I did box for a long time and was taught the anchor punch which is anchoring the front foot, dropping back on the rear, then meeting the opponent as you spring back and he comes forward and meaning too or not this is what Ali did. It had nothing on it but if a fighter is cold and its on the point of the jaw it can still surprisingly stun as its doubled the normal power even when it looks light. I had this happen when I landed it and I think Ali was as surprised as I was several times by its affect. Liston said he didn't see it and was stunned, could be.

 

I think the knock down was legit, not a heavy handed bomb, but the speed sure snapped Liston's head around. However, it is obvious liston gave up. I'll point to the moment where Liston took a knee looking like he was about to get back up. Now, if you watch other people fall again after KD you see the upward motion of them attempting to push themselves off the ground. In Liston's case you see no movement of the legs push it him upward, instead you only see him move his right arm off the canvass and flop backwards as if a sniper had just picked him off. I find it hard to believe he was hurt that badly, and then quickly get up immediately after. I think he just gave up.

 

The punch put him down. It was enough to drop him because it was so clean and Sonnys head recoiled enough under slow motion from genuine impact. It was not enough to keep him down as long as that but then Ali was leaping and running around over him.

Like I said before, I think Fleischer, Ali and Walcott did more to determine the result of the fight after the flash knock down than Liston did.

 

Here are some problems I have with that:

1. When Liston went down, Ali can be seen asking his corner "did I hit him?" Why did he say that?

2. When being interviewed in the ring, Ali said he didn't know which punch decked Liston. He said it might have been a left hook or it might have been a right cross. He wanted to see the tapes.
If a legitimate punch had put Liston down, Ali (of all people) would have known about it. Why didn't he?

3. As I have pointed out several times, there was no excuse for Walcott having stopped the fight. He knew he had not counted Liston out. The Fleischer excuse is irrelevant. That's just another way of saying "the Devil made me do it".


Here's a clip of Ali not knowing how he knocked Liston down
(start at 5 min.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8DR0P0PV5c

 

It is an unsatisfactory fight I will give you that. I think there are logical answers to all of those points you make. Sonny was coming in and Ali's footing was incredible, by the time he landed he was coming in too. There wasn't a lot on it but the timing and placement can account for a flash knockdown. Many times a great fighter will put a man down without hurting him. Ray Leonard did it to Benitez for example with a jab I think. Sometimes the timing itself creates a shock. ALI was in the zone and pumped. No wonder he was surprised. With all his nervous energy and lightning reflexes he could have surprised himself. There is a chance Sonny could have been intimidated with just how good Ali looked on the night, he could not miss Sonny and he did not know where anything was coming from. Sonny had lost his mojo, he was made to feel aware of it too.

Liston was poor and unfocused. ALI was as sharp as lightning, that in it self causes a huge contrast. Then we have all the other stuff. I don't think there is much mystery. There are logical and honest explanations for most of it... I think.

 

choklab,
We disagree but you make good points- thoughtful and well stated.

 

Your point are fair too. Respect.:good

 

One of the biggest messes of all time one way or the other.