Did Liston Get Exposed By Ali

Pretty much this. I'd also like to add Liston had seen 6 minutes of fighting in a 3 year period, and went into the bout with a recorded shoulder injury which he was receiving treatment for.

He also did fairly well. Score was dead even 58-56- 56-58, and 57-57.

 

It was even but I think the trend was inexorable.

The real “what if” is what if Ali hadn’t gotten the hernia and the rematch hadn’t gotten initially postponed. Every reference I’ve seen said that Sonny got himself together and abstained from hard living and worked his arse off to get into the best physical and mental shape he could for that abortive fight, but when it was postponed he just deflated, I seem to recall one Liston biography saying he headed straight for a bar and got cranked.

 

I think Ali wins in a much tougher fight, that goes the distance if Liston was really as good a shape as people say he was. I'm a tad bit skeptical that he was able to turn back the clock.

 

Me too but at least he seemed to have made an effort.

 

Liston’s pair of 1st round victories over Patterson didn’t necessarily tell us where Sonny was at as that time - given different scenarios and an opponent who didn’t fold very early.

Liston’s ring weight was on the rise, he was 215 1/2 lb for the Patterson rematch and 218 by the time he fight Ali.

Sonny’s last real good workout was vs Machen in 1960 and for that fight I think Liston was about 211 1/2 lb - pretty much his best fighting weight.

A prime Liston vs a prime Ali would’ve been an extremely interesting and entertaining fight.

I think the depreciation in Liston’s hand speed and mobility from 58-60 to that of Miami 64 was quite marked.

 

I think Sonny gave it a pretty good shot in the first fight. He got both hands going. Landed. He hit Ali and won rounds from him. For a guy who had not done enough rounds over the last three years and had become used to short wins I think Sonny did pretty well. Ali was very good in that fight. On this first performance against Ali Sonny still beats the rest of the division as it stood at that time.

 

That last round of the first fight, that round was fought at a walk. Of course by then Sonny was tired from trying to nail Ali when he was blinded in the previous round, but without using his fastest footwork Ali got off his toes and straight up outboxed Sonny. He put a beating on Sonny by out jabbing him. Beating him to the punch. Sonny could not compete here because Ali looked to have as long a jab as Liston had. Whereas Sonny usually could outreach most people, the field was levelled here. Liston was beaten. Bad shoulder or not. He was beat. Some fighters carry an injury and mentally they are not beaten. But Sonny was. And he took his lumps in that round. He showed he was tough enough. Nobody continues when they know they are beat.

 

The points score at the time of stoppage were very close but momentum was with Cassius. Ali psyched out the bully just as he did ten years later in Zaire.

Not taking anything away from Sonny whom I think deserves to be recognised as one of the all time great heavyweights in spite of his short reign as champion. He just had the bad luck to run into the young Cassius Clay on that night in Miami - the man who would eventually be recognised by most as the greatest heavyweight of all time.

 

Exposed as what?

Exposed as not good enough to beat arguably the greatest HW of all time, whilst Liston himself was old (in boxing terms) & had been relatively inactive? If so, then whilst "exposed" isn't the word I'd use, yes.

If exposed, as in not good enough to beat a world class HW who was taller than him & fast, then no, as evidenced by his career.

 

This is true. I think he was stalled that much during the Patterson v Ingo series…he looked an impressive contender while waiting for it to end..and he got to demolish the winner of the series. Twice. Expectation was through the roof

many say that Sonny was a “once in a lifetime talent” too.

I agree. When Sonny is winning he’s not old. It’s like Walcott. He knocks out Charles..but he’s old against Marciano. Sonny was the best fighter in the world when he was champion..to beat him, you had to be the best in the world.

Sonny would have beat almost anyone else around on that Miami night. I think Sonny was adequately trained to repeat a third one round blow out against Patterson.

 

There’s no doubt I think that Sonny was past prime when he fought Ali, plus he was virtually inactive in the previous 3 and a half years, he fought less than 6 rounds in that time.
Add to that he was fighting a heavyweight in terms of speed, athleticism and reflexes the likes of which we’d never seen before and sure he was exposed.
However not exposed as a sham or not a great fighter, just on that night in those particular set of circumstances.

 

I think a lot of champs would have looked rubbish against Ali. Liston was last of the old guard and Ali was heralding a new style.

 

Any iteration of Muhammad up to and including Manila beats Sonny.

 

I concur - definitely.