Did Ramirez dump the Mancini fight ?

Feeney was a non-title fight three months after Kim's death. I think that one's excusable.......Mancini - Chacon was a big HBO fight back when there was such a thing. Chacon was coming off his great win over Boza. Shot? Maybe. But more so in hindsight. His previous effort was a good one.

Mancini was a really good fighter with a ton of heart. I don't see too many people calling him great.

 

I wouldn't. Arguello, Whitaker and Chavez stood out.

Neither Rosario nor Camacho stood out at Lightweight as a champ.

Rosario made two defenses (three total). He decisioned Ramirez for a vacant belt, stopped Elizondo, and had to drop Davis Jr. in the last round to squeak by against him. Then Ramirez knocked Rosario out.

Rosario came back later and beat Bramble for a belt and had one defense against Nazario before Chavez owned him.

Camacho made two defenses. He outpointed Ramirez for the belt, won a gift decision against Rosario, and then outpointed Boza-Edwards (who Chacon had beaten). That's all the Macho Man did.

After beating Ramirez, Mancini beat Frias in one round to win the title. He stopped the former champ Espana in six. He stopped Bobby Chacon, Romero and Kim.

The Ramirez and Chacon who Mancini beat were as good as anyone Camacho or Rosario beat at 135.

And Mancini, after a four-year layoff, came back and fought an active, undefeated Camacho at 140, and it was an even fight.

So, if Mancini wasn't anything special at that time, neither were Camacho or Rosario. Because Mancini accomplished as much (or more) than they did at the weight.

And neither Camacho nor Rosario ever fought anyone as good at lightweight as Arguello. If they had, I doubt they'd have done any better against him than Mancini did.

 

Chacon's previous effort was a win over Boza-Edwards in the Fight of the Year. He wasn't shot.

They don't write songs about mismatches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZS3uDu8jy8

 

You're just babbling and repeating what you've already said now, hegrant.

i've mentioned more than once in this thread Mancini was protected and overhyped.it still doesn't preclude him from being a good fighter, or one that could beat Jose Luis Ramirez...another good but not great fighter.

IN all honesty if i was to go fishing for possibly fixed fights i think Bramble vs Rosario has a bigger case of being dodgy looking when i look at lightweight bouts from that era.Livingstone clearly just quit while being quite aware on the canvas, and never before or after showed such a weak chin, not even against fighters like Tszyu late in his career, who certainly hit harder in absolute terms than the smaller Rosario.

We can find plenty of fights like this to claim were fixed.Maybe even a few were, but i'm not going to go with that unless presented with clear evidence of corruption.

To be honest, i think you are simply vastly overestimating the capabilities of the workmanlike, slow Jose Luis Ramirez.A fighter who could be both confused by an unorthodox rhythm, outworked and outsped, all of which Ray did to beat him.I imagine if they fought again it would have been closer, as Ramirez would be more used to the unpredictable punching angles and movement of Mancini, allowing for his tidier punching to come into play more.

 

Good call on the Camacho vs Mancini fight.A great effort from Ray considering the inactivity, Camacho had lost the plot a bit post-rosario, but he was still more or less in his physical prime then and favoured to comfortably beat Ray.

 

I am not sure if I have seen more bias towards a fighter than your posts. But just re watched the Mancini Ramirez fight and Ramirez Rosario fight. Ramirez fought as well in the Mancini fight as his ability let him. Given that Mancini is physically stronger and perpetual motion Ramirez had no answer for him and fought going backwards. Against Rosario who moved alot but was not as strong or busy as Mancini Ramirez could come forward and select the range he punched at. It looked to me like Ramirez landed some sledgehammers on Mancini but Ray shook them off and kept coming.

Rosario was a different type of technician from Mancini he threw less punches and was more selective and accurate. Bramble was a legit contender his style was a bad match up for a Mancini but a good one for a sharpshooter like Rosario. Guaranteed if Mancini was not legit at 20 yrs old he would not have been thrown in against Arguello. One thing is for sure about Ray regardless of who he fought they were going to have to fight hard and be gut checked util the fight ended. Arguello had as much if not more one punch power as Rosario, remember him hitting CBE with a body shot CBE ****ped his pants. The same missiles he hit Pryor with were the same ones he hit Mancini with. If Rosario cannot KO Mancini early he folds late Ramirez can't take the pressure Rosario certainly can't.

As talented as Rosario was he wasn't a fighter that handled a gut check well.

 

Embarrassing post.

 

It really is.

 

Historians are supposed to act more like scientists in a way.....weighing what happened and giving an impartial eye to the historical impact of what transpired. When such blind agenda is introduced to the argument it sullies things and makes people take you far less seriously than your self-appointed tag of "historian" should warrant. Turn in your badge.

 

I was talking about the group of LW's after Arguello and before Chavez. I think Camacho and Rosario were the best of that group, which includes Mancini.

This statement is just not true: "The Ramirez and Chacon who Mancini beat were as good as anyone Camacho or Rosario beat at 135."

Chacon wasn't a lightweight and had just gone through two hellacious wars with Limon and Boza. He had little left. He was not comparable to Rosario, who Camacho beat or even Howard Davis, who Rosario Beat. And Rosario and Camacho both beat Ramirez in title fights.

And of course, Rosario crushed Bramble who had been champion for over two years and BEAT MANCINI TWICE. I don't think too many people would say the Bramble who lost to Rosario was worse than the Chacon who Mancini beat.

Ramirez did beat Rosario in a title fight

Mancini's best victim was Ramirez, two years before Ramirez fought for the title.

Of the lightweights between the Arguello-Chavez eras: Camacho>Rosario>Ramirez>Bramble>Mancini

Mancini's lack of decent opposition and wins after the Ramirez and Arguello fights hurts his legacy.

 

Marciano and LaMotta are his favorite targets. This is first Mancini, good for him.

 

Ray surprised a lot of observers with in and out movement against Ramirez, taking it to the Mexican against the ropes, then moving back out before Jose could counter. Mancini was a smart kid who boxed intelligently before an impressed Arguello and a partisan crowd for a clear decision win in a situation where a stoppage was not an outcome to be reasonably expected.