Did Roy Jones start losing at LHW when his competition stepped up?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by bailey, Mar 5, 2012.


  1. realsoulja

    realsoulja Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Fixed

    :good
     
  2. Joe.Boxer

    Joe.Boxer Chinchecker Full Member

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    That's just it. You can't claim to be the "undisputed" anything which in itself is so disputed. The way Jones ended up with the belts was a joke. The disgraceful light heavyweight lineage controversy isn't about who's best, king, top dog, #1, is packin' the biggest schlong etc. It's about what's right.

    The super middleweight Lineage is obviously weak because it's such a new division. It isn't surprising the first Lineage champion was probably an opportunistic middleweight or light heavyweight failure. It's had many shitty title fights, but only took until Calzaghe won it before the Lineal champion was irrefutably a worthy one and gained his status without controversy.

    Anyways, there was no massive controversy at 168lbs, and the light heavyweight Lineage has over 100 years of legitimacy, so it's all irrelevant.

    I'll be back in a bit to give window licking spastic SIMPerial1 his daily beating.
     
  3. Joe.Boxer

    Joe.Boxer Chinchecker Full Member

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    Pipe down, pip squeak, or I'll school you too.
     
  4. realsoulja

    realsoulja Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Its good to see you acknowledge your defeat by calling me correct. I never edited words from your quote this time I promise. So your lame attack earlier:-

    Had you open for some devastating counter right hand similar to the one that dropped Calzaghe.


    When the polish guy was holding the WBO, WBA, IBF. There is absolute no denying that he was the #1 of the LHW division, AKA the division king. Anyone who disagree with this should consider them pwned by default.

    However, as time moved forward, history shows us that Roy Jones Jr picked up the WBC, WBA, IBF (as well as the, WBF, NBA, LOL, IBA...) and The Ring LHW titles, thus making him undisputed LHW champion of the world. While the poor polish guy was just the Lineal champ.

    You cant argue with history now.

    1. Roy Jones Jr was unified champion for longer than the Polish man.
    2. Roy Jones Jr held more than 5 different titles, as compared to the Pole who held 2 (Lineal and WBO)
    3. Roy Jones Jr had beaten the previous LHW linear champ under 6 rounds of pure pwnage on neutral territory.
    ------ While the pole did beat Virgil Hill first, on home turf by UD.
    4. Roy Jones Jr's steroid and PED intake made him almost an unstoppable beast in the LHW division, while the Pole looked inferior in comparrison.

    5. Fighters want a piece of the pie, the money and the legacy. Aint no body who would chose the Pole over the undisputed LHW champ unless they were cowards that knew they would be killed in the ring because a roided up RJJ would have been too much, hence would as for the crown jewels.

    Looks like you got some beef with, The Ring. Fair enough, if you dont want to accept, The Ring, who called Roy Jones Jr the #1 of the LHW division, then that doesnt mean RJJ was #2 and as you said it is just down to opinions.

    So lets look at the opinions of the WBA. The WBA confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the WBC. The WBC confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the IBF. The IBFconfirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the NBA. The NBA confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the IBO. The IBO confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the IBA. The IBA confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the WBF. The WBF confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the LOL. The LOL confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    But since you dont want to accept that RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division. Maybe you and your Team Elite compatriots and merge together and use your VCash to make a new Sanctioning body and give the Polish a sanctioning belt, so your opinion would become stronger. Still RJJ would be known as the #1 of the LHW division.

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    You are saying Martinez lost his WBC MW title?

    Martinez is the emeritus WBC MW champion, and is still considered the #1 by the WBC.

    So what point are you trying to make now?

    For Chavez to be the undisputed champion, Chavez needs to be regarded as the #1 in WBC, WBA, IBF, and WBO.

    Even if Chavez does manage to beat Pirog, Geale and Sturm hence becoming the #1 in the WBA, IBF and WBO he still wont be considered undisputed champion because he would be 2nd to Sergio Martinez by the WBC.

    Until a fighter is #1 in all major sanctioning bodies, then can be titled, Undisputed Champion.


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    Todays LHW scene similar to the MW scene doesnt have any unified champions.

    Hopkins is considered the lineal Champ for having beaten Jean Pascal. Hopkins is considered the #1 by the WBC.

    Nathan Cleverly has a paper title WBO. Beibut Shumenov has the WBA and Tavarois Cloud has the IBF.

    IMO Hopkins is the #1 of the LHW division. Since Hopkins doesnt hold all the other titles, there is a dispute, and cant be compared the RJJ LHW era where he was undisputed.

    Once again you can read what I wrote in this post.


    When the polish guy was holding the WBO, WBA, IBF. There is absolute no denying that he was the #1 of the LHW division, AKA the division king. Anyone who disagree with this should consider them pwned by default.

    However, as time moved forward, history shows us that Roy Jones Jr picked up the WBC, WBA, IBF (as well as the, WBF, NBA, LOL, IBA...) and The Ring LHW titles, thus making him undisputed LHW champion of the world. While the poor polish guy was just the Lineal champ.

    You cant argue with history now.

    1. Roy Jones Jr was unified champion for longer than the Polish man.
    2. Roy Jones Jr held more than 5 different titles, as compared to the Pole who held 2 (Lineal and WBO)
    3. Roy Jones Jr had beaten the previous LHW linear champ under 6 rounds of pure pwnage on neutral territory.
    ------ While the pole did beat Virgil Hill first, on home turf by UD.
    4. Roy Jones Jr's steroid and PED intake made him almost an unstoppable beast in the LHW division, while the Pole looked inferior in comparrison.

    5. Fighters want a piece of the pie, the money and the legacy. Aint no body who would chose the Pole over the undisputed LHW champ unless they were cowards that knew they would be killed in the ring because a roided up RJJ would have been too much, hence would as for the crown jewels.

    Looks like you got some beef with, The Ring. Fair enough, if you dont want to accept, The Ring, who called Roy Jones Jr the #1 of the LHW division, then that doesnt mean RJJ was #2 and as you said it is just down to opinions.

    So lets look at the opinions of the WBA. The WBA confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the WBC. The WBC confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the IBF. The IBFconfirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the NBA. The NBA confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the IBO. The IBO confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the IBA. The IBA confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the WBF. The WBF confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the LOL. The LOL confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    But since you dont want to accept that RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division. Maybe you and your Team Elite compatriots and merge together and use your VCash to make a new Sanctioning body and give the Polish a sanctioning belt, so your opinion would become stronger. Still RJJ would be known as the #1 of the LHW division.


    I will reply to the remainder of your post in the next reply
     
  5. realsoulja

    realsoulja Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The owning which bailey has received in this thread has not disheartened the Team Elite favourite. However due the pwnage he has received here, he would like to take a
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    time off to heal from the injuries he received.

     
  6. Joe.Boxer

    Joe.Boxer Chinchecker Full Member

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    YET AGAIN you have completely misunderstood my point. You are without a doubt THE most stupid poster on this forum. You repeatedly misunderstand the kind of points a 3 year old child can figure out.

    1. Who has ever said Gonzalez was the ****ing "best"?

    2. I said the best fighting the best, i.e. the highest independently ranked fighters, boxing to CROWN A LEGITIMATE, LINEAL ****ING CHAMPION, OBVIOUSLY WHEN THE TITLE IS VACANT. You absolute clown. NOTHING I have said is contradicted, you ****ing idiot.

    And what the **** have the sanctioning bodies got to do with this? You are literally a vegetable. I'm surprised you can figure out how to switch your pc on.

    YET AGAIN you have completely humiliated yourself.

    Now you are trying to imitate me, obvious because I am so superior to you. You don't even realize it because I'm schooling you so ****ing hard. Your mother should have been violently thrown down the stairs instead you shitting you out. You are utterly useless.

    Who?? DM had been a title holder for nine years when he finally lost. And it was by a disputed decision. Yet again you have no idea about the subject.

    They aren't opposed. They just don't have a clue, like you. ******.

    No, YOU don't. You literally can't even spell it. I know it inside out, you stupid turd.

    One of your dumbest ever comments.


    Like I said, joke site written by 12 year olds. You've just proved me right again.

    You fall flat on your face EVERY time you try to understand a simple point. I have thoroughly owned and humiliated you over and over in this thread. FACT. Mine, and Team Elite's credibility has increased massively in this thread, whilst you have taken popkins' place as the official ESB General Forum punchbag.

    I am severely 'beating your ass' on a daily basis, you infantile ******.

    You have no boxing intellect, no level of understanding, and yes, I am butt-****ing you so hard with a devastating combination of brutal ownage and thorough schooling that your ******* is now one massive horrific gaping black hole.

    You have repeatedly posted the DUMBEST **** this forum has ever seen, and misunderstood just about every single issue. You clearly have very low intelligence, and are an embarrassment to boxing fans around the world.
     
  7. realsoulja

    realsoulja Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Which part of undisputed do you dispute with?

    That is not what me and you are disputing. Our dispute is regarding who was #1, RJJ or the Pole.

    I have provided my evidence to you, and you can also take knowledge from the schooling I have given bailey.

    You come with your evidence on why you think the polish man was #1 over RJJ then we are talking.

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    http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12381366&postcount=785

    I dont understand what RJJ's or the Poles lund has got to do with being the #1 LHW division king.

    DM was the LHW linear champ, while RJJ was undisputed champ and also the #1 LHW division king. This is all I am saying. The Pole beat the man who was the Lineal champion.

    My point here is:-
    -----------------------------------------
    These champions were never considered lineal champions (Except for Joe Calzaghe):-

    Sugar Ray Leonard, WBC SMW champ from 1988 - 1989
    Graciano Rocchigiani, IBF SMW champ, 1988 - 1989
    Tommy Hearns, WBO SMW champ from 1988 - 1990
    Chris Eubank, WBO SMW champ, 1991 - 1994
    Nigel benn, WBC SMW champ from 1992 - 1996
    James Toney, IBF SMW champ, 1993 - 1994
    Steve Collins, WBO SMW champ, 1994 - 1997
    Roy Jones Jr, IBF SMW champ, 1994 - 1996
    Charles Brewer, IBF SMW champ, 1996 - 1998
    Robin Reid, WBC SMW champ from 1996 - 1997
    Joe Calzaghe, WBO SMW champ, 1997 - vacation.
    Svenn Ottke, IBF SMW champ, 1998 - retirement

    But arguably at one time some of them were the #1 in the SMW division despite not being lineal champions.

    Therefore proving the fact:-

    Just because you are the lineal champ dont make you number 1 in the division

    So anyone who thinks that because you have the lineal championship it automatically warrants the #1 position also thinks the following.

    Michael Nunn > James Toney :patsch:lol:
    Chong Pal Park > Sugar Ray Leonard :patsch
    Byron Mitchell > Svenn Ottke
    Victor Cordoba > Eubank/Benn

    With regards to the SMW division
    -------------------------------------------

    It was relevant, do you think I am blabbing all this stuff and it wont be relevant?

    All this nonsense being said is to set this as a golden rule for future the future of ESB:-

    Just because you are the lineal champ dont make you number 1 in the division

    And I will go back to commentating on the ongoing intense battle between

    Imperial1 and Joe.Boxer
     
  8. realsoulja

    realsoulja Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    IntentionalButt really needs to come into this thread and do a RBR on Imperial1 vs Joe.Boxer so the viewing public can have a general idea on the fight.
     
  9. Joe.Boxer

    Joe.Boxer Chinchecker Full Member

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    The way Jones picked up two titles which were rightfully DM's. It was practically corrupt.

    It's not a matter of #1 etc, it's a matter of who was the true division champion, and who was the No1 challenger (unless you mean who was the #1 challenger?)

    I don't need any knowledge.

    Stop saying #1, division king etc. It isn't clear. DM was the true world champion in the opinion of the historians. Calling Jones the "undisputed" champion makes no sense when there is already a Lineal champion.


    We agree on this.
    Yes, because there was no dispute between who was the true world champion at 168lbs like at 175lbs . The high-profile guys like Eubank, Benn, Toney etc were just title holders. None claim they were "undisputed" champion like Jones. **** Lineage from the 80s I agree.

    If by number 1 you mean the boxer regarded as the best in the division, I agree, that was never in dispute. However, you may wanna try explaining it to GIMPerial1.
     
  10. realsoulja

    realsoulja Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    This fight seems to have be going on for an eternity, both combatants have suffered knock downs, given knockdowns and have absorbed brutal punches. But just like every fight, if it goes on too long, a fighter will begin to show fatigue and make mistakes....

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    This may be the turning point of the epic war which has taken place between these proud warriors.

    Joe.Boxer makes the claim a lineal championship fight occurs amongst the best of the best.

    http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12381366&postcount=785

    Imperial1 immediately saw an opening in Joe.Boxer's defence and went for the KO blow. How can DM vs Gonzales be the best of the best?

    http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12382104&postcount=790

    Flooring Joe.Boxer with a viscous knockdown. I have seen Nigel Benn climb back into the ring after be knocked out of it by the GMan, but if Joe.Boxer manages to escape the 10 count, it will be amongst the biggest comebacks in recent memory.
     
  11. Joe.Boxer

    Joe.Boxer Chinchecker Full Member

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    I never claimed DM vs Gonzales was the "best vs best" you ****ing idiot. What a ridiculous assumption. I was obviously referring to Maske vs Hill. I thought that much was obvious to anyone not named GIMPerial1

    Massive brain fart on your part.
     
  12. realsoulja

    realsoulja Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Are you trying to say, the lineal champion = the true division champion?

    If you are then you also think

    Michael Nunn > James Toney
    Chong Pal Park > Sugar Ray Leonard
    Byron Mitchell > Svenn Ottke
    Victor Cordoba > Eubank/Benn

    In the SMW division.

    Just some advice on this, never think you are the smartest. One thing a human being can never cease to do, is learn knowledge.

    #1 means the best, the numero uno. You say DM was the true division champion according to the boxing historians? please can you provide any of these boxing historians quotes for me to comprehend on the issue.

    I will provide you the opinions of the following.

    So lets look at the opinions of the WBA. The WBA confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the WBC. The WBC confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the IBF. The IBFconfirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the NBA. The NBA confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the IBO. The IBO confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the IBA. The IBA confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the WBF. The WBF confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the LOL. The LOL confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.


    Are you saying Steve Little was the true division champion AKA the best and not Nigel Benn or James Toney?

    There is no such thing as true division champion, you just made it up.

    There is division king = #1 of the division
    Undisputed champ = Holding all the major belts
    Unified champ = Holding 2 or more
    Lineal Champ = Beat the man who beat the man


    So does that mean you agree RJJ was number 1 AKA the best in the division. and also agree with the following opinions in the process:-

    So lets look at the opinions of the WBA. The WBA confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the WBC. The WBC confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the IBF. The IBFconfirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the NBA. The NBA confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the IBO. The IBO confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the IBA. The IBA confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the WBF. The WBF confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.

    So lets look at the opinions of the LOL. The LOL confirms RJJ was the #1 of the LHW division.
     
  13. elchivito

    elchivito master betty Full Member

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    RJ only lost after making the drop from HW back to LHW. Don't believe me look to Byrd-George for reference.:good
     
  14. Joe.Boxer

    Joe.Boxer Chinchecker Full Member

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    Yes, the Lineal champion has always been the fighter recognized as the division's champion. Obviously in a new division like 168lbs, the first Lineal champ was possibly garbage.

    Don't know what u mean by ">". Cordoba was a decent champion (robbed against Nunn in their first fight)

    All the guys who put the CyberBoxingZone together. They were the most credible on this.

    You also agree that the way Jones ended up with two of the three major titles he had, as well as the Ring title, was bull****.
    Unfortunately he was champion (obviously not the best), plus it he won it with a controversial decision. Fortunately he quickly lost it to a decent champion in Liles.


    I didn't. Until recent years there was rarely any dispute over who was the champion, regardless of trinkets.

    Stop saying Number 1. DM was the true, Lineal champion. Jones was No1 (challenger)
     
  15. realsoulja

    realsoulja Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    In that case, there has been a misconception or a misconception intentionally developed to avoid humiliation.

    I dont disagree with you about DM being the Lineal champion, but I do disagree with you that DM was the #1, the undisputed champ, the division king.

    What I am talking about is, being the best in the division, and this is decided by

    - Accomplishments
    - Dominance
    - Opinions of solid representative
    - Undisputabliness
    - H2H ability
    - ....and so on

    Based on this criteria RJJ was the best in the division he had accomplished more, was considered #1 of the division by the majority of valid opinions and held the majority of the major sanctioning belts. But DM was the lineal champion.

    Lineal champ doesnt mean you are the #1 man of the division, it just means you beat the man who beat the man.

    > means greater than, more than and so on.

    In this case, RJJ > DM, in almost every possible way except for lineal champion.

    CyberBoxingZone states DM was the lineal champion, it doesnt say DM was the #1 man of the division. Besides, you have in one corner

    CyberBoxingZone a website

    and in the other corner

    WBC, WBA, IBF, WBF, The Ring......

    I will rather accept the opinion of the WBC, WBA, IBF, The Ring.... that states RJJ was the #1 man of the division rather than CyberBoxingZone which doesnt even claim DM being the #1 man of the division.

    Imperial1 has already schooled you pretty nicely on this topic, so I dont think I need to interfere.

    However, corruption has always existed in boxing.

    I am saying, if I was told to rank the LHW division of that time. My ranking would look something like.

    1. Roy Jones Jr
    2. Polish man

    Hence making RJJ the #1 of the division and division king, aswell as undisputed champ.


    Thats more like it. Being the lineal champion dont mean you are the best, so in this context, DM was not considered the best over RJJ jr.


    Today boxing is in a mess, back in the old day the best would fight the best, but today we have Mayweather vs Pacqiuao.

    Its politics which has ****ed up the sport, however I hope I make myself clear.

    I am not disputing DM being the lineal champ. I am disputing DM being considered the best over RJJ.

    If you rank the division going by lineal champion being automatically number 1 then you consider the following rankings to be true.

    1. Gonzales
    2. RJJ

    1. Nunn
    2. Toney

    1. Erdei
    2. Calzaghe

    and so on.

    Hopefully an understanding will develop, I think you are still on ***** street from the Counter Imperial landed earlier on, that is why I didnt want to interfere and wanted to stick to commentating.