Did Siki expose Carpentier as being mostly hype?

On the afternoon of September 22, fight fans packed the velodrome to see Carpentier defend his title. Nicknamed the “Orchid Man” for the corsages he often wore with his tailored suits, Carpentier had been fighting professionally since he was 14. Although he was coming off a failed attempt to win Dempsey’s heavyweight title, he’d helped secure boxing’s first million-dollar gate. Fighting again as a light-heavyweight, the Frenchman’s future was still bright—so bright that Carpentier’s handlers were taking no chances. They offered Battling Siki a bribe to throw the fight. Siki agreed, under the condition that he “didn’t want to get hurt.” What followed was one of the strangest bouts in boxing history.

Although Siki later admitted that the fight was rigged, there’s some question as to whether Carpentier knew it. Early in the first of 20 scheduled rounds, Siki dropped to a knee after Carpentier grazed him, and then rose and began to throw wild, showy punches with little behind them. In the third, Carpentier landed a powerful blow, and Siki went down again; when he got back on his feet, he lunged at his opponent head first, hands low, as if inviting Carpentier to hit him again. Carpentier obliged, sending Siki to the canvas once more.

At that point, the action in the ring turned serious. Siki later told a friend that during the fight, he had reminded Carpentier, “You aren’t supposed to hit me,” but the Frenchman “kept doing it. He thought he could beat me without our deal, and he kept on hitting me.”

Suddenly, Battling Siki’s punches had a lot more power to them. He pounded away at Carpentier in the fourth round, then dropped him with a vicious combination and stood menacingly over him. Through the fourth and into the fifth, the fighters stood head to head, trading punches, but it was clear that Siki was getting the better of the champion. Frustrated, Carpentier charged in and head-butted Siki, knocking him to the floor. Rising to his feet, Siki tried to protest to the referee, but Carpentier charged again, backing him into a corner. The Frenchman slipped and fell to the canvas—and Siki, seemingly confused, helped him get to his feet. Seeing Siki’s guard down, Carpentier showed his gratitude by launching a hard left hook to Siki’s head just before the bell ended the round. The Senegalese tried to follow Carpentier back to his corner, but handlers pulled him back onto his stool.

At the start of round six, Battling Siki pounced. Furious, he spun Carpentier around and delivered an illegal knee to his midsection, which dropped the Frenchman for good. Enraged, Siki stood above him and shouted down at his fallen foe. With his right eye swollen shut and his nose broken, the Orchid Man was splayed awkwardly on his side, his left leg resting on the lower rope.

Siki returned to his corner. His manager, Charlie Hellers, blurted out, “My God. What have you done?”

“He hit me,” Siki answered.

Referee M. Henri Bernstein didn’t even bother counting. Believed by some to be in on the fix, Bernstein tried to explain that he was disqualifying Siki for fouling Carpentier, who was then being carried to his corner. Upon hearing of the disqualification, the crowd unleashed a “great chorus of hoots and jeers and even threaten the referee with bodily harm.” Carpentier, they believed, had been “beaten squarely by a better man.”

Amid the pandemonium, the judges quickly conferred, and an hour later, reversed the disqualification. Battling Siki was the new champion.

 

Carpentier is easily the most overrated fighter of the first 75 years of the 20th century. No question. He was the dual product of an era without mass media coverage and a burgeoning European boxinig scene that sometimes bordered on professional wresting in its approach to "realism" which may be why Carpentier chose Jack Curley, the father of modern phony professional wrestling, as his agent in America (or vice versa).

 

Media usage does not mean fighters were not great. Babe Ruth was hyped yet most historians still rate him the greatest baseball player. Houdini was hyped but he is still considered the greatest magician ever.

Carpentier was a great athlete. One of the best trained fighters ever. Physically he was a match for any lt hwt who ever lived.

 

The fight video clearly shows Siki using a judo like move throwing Carpentier over his knee and down to the canvas. It was clearly and obviously a foul and it messed up the Frenchman's knee so bad he couldn't continue.

At that moment the ref correctly DQ'd Siki. For whatever reason that decision was later overturned.

 

Carpentier was a very good fighter made a habit of Ko ing British HWs was a fighter ace during ww1.what.more do you want? The bloke had bottle.

 

I think that we have to conclude that Carpinter was not as good as the media thought at the time.

Even so, it wouldn’t do to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

the papke film exposes him more in my mind, i think what i've seen is from later on so it isn't everything, but he just gets beat up.

 

His record was excellent as champion from lower weights right up to heavyweight in Europe. Then winning the worlds lt hwt champion.

Doing well against Joe Jeanette was no easy feat over 15 rounds. Not many white fighters could do as well. (Or would try).

If you see quality footage of Carp the guy was a cut and remarkable looking fighter. Not an ounce of fat on that fighter.

 

Carpentier was a brilliant fighter but lost 5 years due to the world war. After the war he became more and more a celebrity fighter.

The majority of sportswriters in America didn't overrate him anyway. He got a lot of attention for his war record and the romantic French image, he was popular, he made good copy, attracted the artists and intellectuals. But very few of the boxing writers overrated his boxing ability.

 

The point about the lack of media at the time is that if there was mass media in the 1910s and 1920s then millions of people would have been able to see the kind of antics Carpentier was up to and he wouldnt be considered great. Period. Being a cut, handsome athlete does not equate greatness. The fact is that when he was being so highly touted in the United States only a handful of people here had seen him fight. Had they been able to see him constantly trying to claim fouls in his toughest fights like he did against Gunboat Smith, Siki, and Tunney. Had they been able to see several fighters flop all over the ring taking dives like Arthur Townley, Siki (almost), Levinsky and others did. Had they been able to listen to his litany of pathetic excuses for his losses. Had they been able to see the obvious bias in his favor in fights where he was in serious trouble like against Gunboat Smith, and Willie Lewis. Had they been able to see him get hammered by likes of a shot Billy Papke, Frank Kaus, Dixie Kid, Willie Lewis (only to win a gift decision after being bounced off the canvas like a yoyo). Then yes, people would have a different opinion of him. Im sorry but when Carpentier comes to the United States and fights a handful of fights before a guy like Nat Fleischer who has never seen him before, and loses miserably every time or at best wins in suspect manner, and Fleischer goes on to rate him in his top five LHW of all time for decades then I have call bull**** and chalk that up to ignorant hyperbole. If Carpentier was such a great fighter where are the results? Jeanette? He lost that. Nobody ever brings up what should have been his biggest win, Levinsky, because A. Levinsky was shot at that point and B. That fight was supposedly fixed. Ted Kid Lewis? Defending your LHW title against a guy who could make 145 pounds and then sucker punching him on the break to win is impressive? Gunboat Smith? Is winning a fight by DQ after being dropped and while down "hit" with a punch that most people thought either didnt land, or barely skidded off his shoulder impressive? Even the referee admitted that the "foul" did no damage but disqualified Smith nonetheless because technically it was still a foul and added that had he seen Carpentier's manager rush the ring to claim a foul (which happened and was a favorite tactic of his when Carpentier was hurt or losing) he would have disqualified Carpentier instead. He got beat up one side of the ring and down the other by Papke, Tunney, Gibbons, Willie Lewis (a fat, glass jawed ex WW), and Frank Klaus, often brutally so. His team was so insecure about his own ability that several of his fights were fixed or attempted to be fixed. Where are all of these great results to back up the claims of his greatness? The fact is that today we can watch more of Carpentier than almost anyone was able to see while he was alive and the results speak for themselves. He was a one trick pony. Jab, right hand, clinch. Jab, right hand, clinch. Over and over and over. If you were a limited glass jawed Brit that was usually enough. If you were paid to lay down that was enough. If a referee was swayed by Carpentier being the money man, that was enough. When he fought actual great fighters or nearly great fighters it wasnt enough. The thing is, when studying the whole Carpentier situation, is that you get a real sense that there was a different culture around the sport particularly as it pertained to Carpentier than there was here in the United States. It was very much a sense of entertainment, not necessarily sport, that drove the Carpentier machine. He was the star of the show and the show must go on. His handler was a circus man, literally, and his American agent was the man responsible for laying out the modern philosophy of pro wrestling as sports entertainment, not sports. Carpentier had seized the publics imagination and the majority of people over there seem more interested in just attending "the Georges Carpentier show" rather to go see a fight.

P.S. Carpentier wasnt a WWI fighter ace. He worked in a two man observation plane, essentially an early spy plane. Dangerous work to be sure and commendable that he took his prime years to serve his country at what was quite literally the height of his fame.

 

Brilliant stuff.

 

It is debatable how damaging that is.

Papke was one of the greatest middleweights of the pre-war era, and Carpintier’s best work was not at that weight.