Did Sugar Ray Robinson "duck" anyone as champion (WW or MW)?

Perhaps you and Burt could identify who you consider to have been the best contenders for Ray's titles, while he was a reigning champion at WW and MW, that he never squared off with. I imagine it's a very short list, but let's get away from the discussion of Burley to try offering the thread starter some answers. This is actually a pretty good challenge.

 

D, as Ray Robinson won the ww title from Tommy Bell Dec 1946 ,Ray Robinson truly fought the very best welterweight contenders at that time. Gavilan, George Sugar Costner, JimmyDoyle,Bernard Docusen etc.He at this time had no top welterweights that was a threat to his title...He "ducked" no welterweight challenger. I made mention that charley Burley was over the 147 lb limit in 1946 but there was much talk as who would win between Robinson and Burley in an non-title bout. Burley was still a feared opponent as a heavier man than Robbie, and Robinson did fight some bigger men than he in non-title bouts, but never agreed to fight Burley in a bout that astute fight people would have loved to see.After all Robinson took on and kod a great punching 160 pounder Steve Belloise in 1949. So why not Burley...
That is my sole contention. To me Ray Robinson was most likely the greatest welterweight of alltime, and though he wasn't obligated to fight Burley in an over the weight match-up, that bout should have been consumated... Cheers D...

 

People seem to forget Burley couldnt draw flies.

Robinson would fight heavier fighter as likes of Lamotta and Levine due to the matchups being able to sell. Plus Burley had a habit of being an incredibly boring boxer.

Why fight the high risk fighters (such as Cocoa Kid & Burley) for such little reward. Robinson was a business man first.

 

SRR ko1 RJJ

 

Your ignoring the fact that Burley couldnt sell tickets to save his life, what was the benefit for Robinson to fight him?

Its not like Burley was unbeaten or considered to be unbeatable at the time, he'd been bested by some average contenders of the time.

If there was a great demand for the fight, I'd bet my life Robinson would have fought him (like the demand that arose for Robinson vs Gavilan I & II).

 

Hey Red, how'd you score Hagler / Leonard?

I had Hagler winning 10-2

 

Getting back to the original question, I think in the late 50's when Robinson was only after big fights (basilio, fullmer etc), there may have been a few deserving contenders who never got a shot, maybe Giardello?

 

Wasn't last minute (scheduled for April 27, substitution took place on April 21), it was to be against Gene Burton (SRR's stablemate). Robinson risked being banned from fighting by NBA for his refusal.

 

N,Robinson fought many, many fighters who were less a draw than Charley Burley, and half as dangerous. So why did Ray Robinson fight so many opponents that were not big drawing cards, and never gave a shot to Charley Burley,who contrary to what you imply in your post, was considered a great and FEARED fighter of that time? The answer was Robinson was not sure he could beat Charley Burley, and as boxing is a BUSINESS, Robinson felt that the risk of losing to Burley was not worth the reward...But N,I vividly recall today, Burley the head of "Murderers Row",was always on Robinson's mind,
and on the mind of many learned boxing fans of that time. I included...
One other thing N., Burley gave away more weight to better fighters than Robinson, and that is a fact. He beat such bigger men as billy Soose,holman Williams,Jack Chase, Archie Moore,Bert Lytell, Billy Smith,Nate bolden,all tough fighters.So was Robinson obligated to fight Burley for a non-title fight?
No...Burley was no longer a Welterweight. But a Harry Greb or a Sam Langford would have !!!

 

And this , along with the ducking of Burley , even if not as a champion is why I can't consider him as the #1 of all times.

 

Towards the end of his middleweight championship days he probably ducked several of the good middleweights to fight welterweight Carmen Basilio. Then Basilio himself accused Robinson of ducking a third fight with him.

Joe Giardello and Spider Webb probably deserved shots around 1957. And complained they were being ducked.

The fourth match between Robinson and Olson in 1956 was unnecessary from a sporting standpoint, and those immediate return bout entitlement contracts is a reason a lot of worthy contenders got ducked in that era.

 

Great posts, Burt. Really enjoyed reading them.

I think we all agree that Robinson can't be faulted for not fighting Burley, but I fully agree with Burt that it would strenghten his argument with Greb as p4p king since Greb seemed to have had no such hesitations.

No one can fault Pac if he shows himself reluctant to take on Martinez, but that is probably the kind of win he needs to be in the argument for one of the very top spots p4p.

 

Hya B. What made Harry Greb so unique in history ,allowing him to travel all over the country on hot railroads, tackling anyone,anytime ? And whipping them, I might add...
1-he had tremendous leg speed, allowing him to dart in and out,making his opponents incapable of timing him..
2- Greb also had great hand-speed also,allowing him to smother his opponents throughout 15 rounds, They were always on the defensive, and
as one opponent claimed, " Greb never gave you the ball ".
3- Harry had amazing stamina, and he seemed to get stronger in the later rounds.
4-He had an iron chin,even when hit flush on the jaw, shook off the punches of heavier lightheavies and even heavyweights. A RUGGED individual,indeed.
5- A lust for combat ,combined with a fearlessness that allowed Harry Greb
to survive a 300 bout career, NEVER being STOPPED, except his first year,when the bigger,and more experienced Joe Chip stopped the novice Harry Greb,and when young Harry broke his arm against Kid Graves. Just
imagine after that first year Greb in about 280 additional bouts, was NEVER
STOPPED...!
B, this is why I have him at P4P 1. No other fighter his weight in history [160lbs], could have accomplished half as much with the same opposition.
Harry Greb ,was maybe not pretty, but was the most EFFECTIVE fighter in history IMO...Cheers :good
could have come even CLO

 

A fight with Billy Graham would have been interesting