Did the Rumble In The Jungle decide who the greatest of all time would be?

He would’ve knocked Young out as well.

If he beat Ali, he more than likely doesn’t change his style from the monster he was pre-Zaire. Young would never beat that version of Foreman.

 

It is cause for wonder: who would have been Big George's opponents following a defeat of Ali?

 

This is a very well considered and imagined hypothetical.

Personally, up to and including Zaire (accepting that Foreman beats Ali) I’d still take Ali as the greater fighter - but it would put Foreman that much closer to Ali in my eyes.

Ali did reverse his losses to Norton and Frazier on the way to Foreman. He’d also beaten Chuvalo twice (common opponent).

Foreman as a huge puncher held more dramatic victories over shared opposition but that doesn’t necessarily make him the better fighter in the whole scheme of things.

Liston also held more dramatic victories over comp. shared with Ali - and they were younger, closer to prime versions that Liston faced also.

Prior to Zaire, if you believed the prime Ali to be the greater fighter overall and that he would’ve beaten Foreman when in his prime, would it be logical and justified to change those opinions if 24 yo prime Foreman had defeated 32 yo Ali - even if via emphatic, early round knock out?

Personally, I don’t think so but obviously people can weigh victories and the manner in which they are achieved differently.

Say prime Foreman fought 67 Terrell and KO’d him in 2 rounds.

Definitely impressive but George would’ve been a lot less if not a singularly might puncher - knocking opponents out fast was what he did.

I wouldn’t necessarily see Ali’s actual and near perfect display against Terrell over 15 whole rounds as any less by comparison.

In fact, I could still rate it more highly based on several other points of criteria.

Even before the dour forecasts for Ali against Foreman, there was a good number that believed Ali mightn’t be able to cut it at the top level in general anyway after his 3.5 exile - even despite how great he has already proven himself to be in his 1960s prime.

 

It's true, a lot of people have stressed the psychological damage the loss in Zaire had on George. I imagine it was a bit like what happened to Iron Mike in Tokyo. He rarely ever fought in that amazing, unstoppably ferocious style after that.

Of course, George bounced back after some years off.

 

Hmm, let's see: we can bet there'd be a Norton rematch, Frazier would have popped back up (earlier than he did in reality). An Ali rematch. In fact, rematches probably would have been huge moneymakers for George.

He'd also probably have some schlubs thrown in there like Stander, past-it Quarry...

As @swagdelfadeel intimated, he'd probably wipe most of them out (Ali is of course always a HUGE wild card).

but (in my opinion) he'd inevitably succumb to a young, smart Larry Holmes in the last part of the 70s. IEspecially if Foreman held the title from Frazier on and had all those rematches, Holmes would have been hungrier, and was in 1978 a far better fighter than the past-it Frazier, Norton, and mostly done (let's say 1976) Ali. I imagine if the Holmes-Foreman fight took place in 78, George would have lost at least a majority decision.

 

Depending on how it impacted Ali's results, thereafter, Foreman beating Ali would have more likely established Joe Louis as the greatest.

Though it is not impossible, Foreman would have been hard-pushed to amass a Louis-like or [real-world] Ali-like record, post-Ali anyway.

Equally, Ali might well have won a rematch and/or gone on to collect the wins he did in the real world.

But a win for Foreman here establishes him as a Top-3 ATG HW, either way, IMO.

 

Ali was a 3-1 or 4-1 underdog. It was very much an upset but Ali was a live dog in that fight.

 

I'm just wondering if Foreman beats them worse in the rematch, cuz now they're screwed up from that. And then there's Lyle, he might not even perform as well as he did cuz in this narrative Foreman has never been defeated. How does a Shavers match fare for Foreman?

 

Even a foreman capable of demolishing Ali? And presumably beating jimmy young if he's still champ in 78...

I favor Holmes over the real foreman but against this imaginary stopper of both swarmers and boxers... Larry would be in for a tough night

 

I think, in the case of Ali at least, it was the most impacting victory in hw history. If Foreman were to have beaten Ali, there would always be people saying that he never faced a prime Ali. Ali would be known as the biggest what-if in the history of the sport, a man of tremendous talent that dismantled the divisions best, robbed of his chance to become the greatest. His 70s career would see some good wins but would be an ill advised come back. If Foreman had destroyed Ali like Norton or Frazier, it would have given him a small claim as the greatest hw of all time but I would still take Louis. He would have needed to do a bit more during the 70s and then as the OP said come back and reclaim his title.

I don't think the Foreman victory decided Ali as the greatest either, but it did do something else for Ali, it gave him the best narrative in the sport's history. A man who overcame great odds, proved his elite talent, got robbed of that talent, was humiliated on the largest possible stage in the FOTC, got humiliated again by some relatively unknown fighter and classed as done, only to defeat those two fighters in rematches and upset the odds yet again. When Ali defeated Frazier in Thrilla, he secured his status as the greatest hw in my opinion. Everything after that, mainly reclaiming the title from Spinks, was just him locking down that argument.

 

If you’re talking heavyweights, maybe. P4P….nope.

 

I guess the question is would Foreman be considered number 1 has he convincingly beaten Ali or knocked him out? I think it would be hard to argue against such a ranking.

The funny thing is Ali's resume is so good that even if he lost, one could still argue for him being top 3-5 at HW!

 

George did have a problem with rights, and Shavers had the most devastating.

Pre-Ali would probably get Shavers in 3 at the latest, post-Ali would probably suffer a kd but stop Earnie a bit earlier than Lyle. Earnie wasn't as good on the follow up as Ron, and didn't have the chin.

 

Sure, now that I think about it George might have done better if he'd never lost to Ali.

I see the George who lost to Young getting stopped by Holmes in 12.

 

Holmes hit harder with the jab and was an even more aggressive slugger than Ali, so I could see that. Once Holmes had Foreman in trouble, Ali might clown a bit-not Holmes.