Did the second Foreman REALLY have a better chin than the first Foreman?

It's clear that old Foreman was indeed better in some respects. It's also clear that stylistically old Foreman would cause younger Foreman some specific problems. Was he an "overall" better fighter. Well that's debatable. There's a lot to be said for youth and explosiveness.

 

Agreed Pug, difficult to see a 160lbs Toney, or any MW for that matter, absorbing punches from Sam Peter the way he did when they actually fought.

No question his greater bulk and vastly thicker neck helped in that regard, imo.

 

What you said, Swag, boils down not only to your and my discussion, but to the whole topic - at least.
The question is whether some part of boxing history boils down to what you said.
Now I apologize that I know less about boxing than most of you, so I can't argue with you in an argumentative manner... I will have to (for analysis) involve others (of course I DON'T HAVE TO)

 

It's not "impossible" & it wouldn't have been by "magic." There's no shortage of examples throughout boxing history of fighters whose sturdiness improved as a result of weight gain or weight redistribution.

 

No there isn't.

A fighters durability might improve if they no longer have to make a weight cut, but bulking up will not improve their ability to take a punch in itself.

You can't put muscles on chins.

If anything Foreman's chin would have been worse in the 90s due to cumulative trauma.

 

Ali's durability improved as he gained weight over the course of his career, & he never had to cut weight either. I'd argue Charles' did as well (comparing his fights weighing under 170 lbs vs. over it).

No, but you can put them on necks, which can help to absorb the impact of chinshots.

 

No, you just assume that their durability improved.

In practice the evidence is very questionable.

Absolutely nothing that he could have done to strengthen his neck that he wouldn't have been doing in his previous career.

 

I can’t think of another fighter ever where anyone would argue this. Maybe a case can be made for Wlad. But I more credit his great defense. I’m not sure why his chin held up better. Maybe more to do w the pacing.

 

Foreman's knockdowns in the 70s for example vs Ali and Young were due to fatigue more so than his chin letting him down. And the knockdowns vs Lyle is because Foreman was swinging for the fences with virtually 0 defense vs another big puncher in Lyle.

The difference with Foreman in the 80s/90s is that he altered his defence using the cross arm defence, he also put on alot of weight so those big tree trunk like arms were put to good use to cushion the blows.

Finally Foreman also paced himself alot better in his 2nd career as I said earlier fatigue was a big factor in the knockdowns vs Young and Ali.

 

All of these are line items I came here to state. I think the main 2 were he was heavier/sturdier and his older version's defense was far better.

 

I lean towards the 'chins do not get better over time' side of the fence.

Factors other than Foreman's chin might have changed over time, to perhaps enable improved handling of the risk of concussive impacts. However, I really can't see a case for a middle-aged man having gained some kind of physical edge in regard to his chin.

 

I didn't "assume" Ali's durability improved, I watched him get rocked, dropped, & even seriously hurt multiple times by small HWs during the time frame that he weighed under 210 lbs & then directly compared that w/ the way he reliably stood up under extended beatings & clean shots from ATG punchers

FALSE, Foreman was famed precisely for using a lot of unorthodox training methods during his 2nd career. Look at the pre-fight buildup to the Savarese fight, which shows (among other things) him dragging a jeep that's strapped to his back at the 10:14 mark:

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That's on top of the fact that you simply have no way of knowing not only how a fighter's training regimen is structured, but also how dedicated he is to that training, both of which would impact his buildup & distribution of muscle.

Then throw in the fact that our understanding of the nature & effects of concussions was far less in previous decades than it's been in recent years. Recent studies corroborate the impact of neck strength/muscle on curtailing the effects of concussive blows.

https://www.rutgers.edu/news/athlet...oid-concussions-rutgers-researchers-recommend
"A neck that is stronger, thicker or aligned in a neutral posture – with the ears aligned with the shoulders – may reduce the amount of energy transferred to the brain during an impact, thus reducing the risk and severity of injury, said Carrie Esopenko, an assistant professor at the School of Health Professions and the report’s senior author."

 

I think George Foreman ALWAYS had a solid chin. The difference is that the younger version didn’t know how to conserve his energy and had poor defense

 

What you’re talking about here is, essentially, ballast. And I think that did play a part … just hard to topple him.

 

no. he fough$ smar#er and did no# gas. he gassed vs. Ali. chin was no$ problem