Did the second Foreman REALLY have a better chin than the first Foreman?

Do you agree HWs have superior punch resistance to Flyweights? I.e. do you believe there is a positive correlation between size and punch resistance?

If so, why?

 

And that's the sole reason?

Nothing to do with the size of the body and neck the head is connected to, and the effect that has in absorbing the impact to the head?

 

Ok, we may disagree on the degrees of influence, but both agree there is a positive correlation between size of body and neck and punch resistance.

I would therefore submit, that by definition we are in agreement it is possible for a fighter to improve their punch resistance in absolute terms.

Whether Foreman's improved or not in his 2nd career is still subjective and a judgement call, of course. My guess is it did, but I'm far from certain.

 

Respect for opinion Ikra.

I’ll just say that based on the belief that stronger neck muscles can cause less twisting of the head upon impact (I subscribe to that belief), the stress on the connective tissues and transmission of force to the brain is lessened.

With less twist, there would also be less momentary restriction of blood supply to the brain.

Atop that, the overall sudden movement of the head is reduced.

A sudden snapping of the head even without contact on the chin being involved will still cause varying degrees of dizziness if not outright unconsciousness.

Concussions can be caused by sudden acceleration or deceleration of the head without actual impact to the head necessarily having caused the snapping of the head.

 

Good post on your part here. Be it 70's or 90's, Ron Lyle is the only fighter to engage in an all out brawl from bell to bell with any version of Foreman.

 

He had a better HEAD.

 

That is quite a big assumption indeed.

For example Foreman himself named the three biggest punchers that he faced as Cleveland Williams (sparring presumably), Ron Lyle, and Gerry Cooney.

Holyfield named Foreman himself as the biggest puncher that he ever faced, not one of the 90s monsters.

Even if I was more on the fence about the question of whether a fighters chin can improve in their 40s, I wouldn't be comfortable with the assumption that the 90s crowd hit harder because they looked like sides of meat.

I also get the idea that you are as likely to get dropped by the best you face, as you are by the biggest hitters that you face.

 

Gee, well, when you are 30-40lb lighter, are fighting dehydrated like a dummy with no defence, I'm not surprised that you feel that you get tagged harder than when you are bigger, stronger and fight smarter Meanwhile superman Lyle failed to KO a bunch of other people including some really uninspiring opposition.

I'm not surprised that 250lb, gym-jacked Old Foreman hit like a ton of bricks. Who ever disputed that?

Sure, I can go with that. I'd want to see some video evidence of that. Like this:

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I have this crazy theory that people can improve themselves. I mean, I know its far out, but its this little belief I have. A theory if you will.

 

His chin? Probably not. But he was harder to tire out and put away, and harder to drop for (defensive and size reasons) so his resistance to be being stopped or knocked down was probably better in his second career.

 

When I quoted Foreman stating Lyle to be the hardest puncher he faced/felt, I did anticipate that it might be highlighted to be a relative perception on Foreman’s part.

Fair point.

However, the interpretation that Foreman was speaking in relative terms is still speculative and somewhat circular.

We could also speculate in equal and opposite terms on a fighter’s perception of power throughout the progression of his career - pivoting on the assumption that a punch with the same force is going to be “felt” more as a fighter ages and his resilience naturally declines.

Ali nominated Shavers as the hardest puncher he faced. Notably, the Shavers fight came very late in Ali’s career - was Ali’s perception relative to his own, current and declined state also?

Was Ali more punch resistant earlier in his career and was he only nominating the most recent power puncher he faced in memory - that puncher being Shavers - time distancing him from the shots he took from the likes of Frazier, Norton and Foreman?

Interesting that despite all those he faced in his second career, Foreman could still harken back to Lyle as the hardest puncher he faced - and among others, Foreman definitely felt Cooney’s famed left hook early in their fight - it caused George to visibly lurch forward and lose his footing.

I dare say that left would’ve probably had the same effect on the Young Foreman at best - possibly even less so.

As to Lyle, the man could definitely punch but he didn’t always purpose himself to go for broke.

Curiously, at times, Lyle tried to “box” more than he should’ve - pushing the boundaries of his skill set in that regard.

Lyle became sheer puncher vs Foreman. No other variables involved to muddy the waters. A big, fit, powerful 220 lb’r letting them go.

Lyle also took Ali’s lead from Zaire in so far as dropping clean right crosses and right hand leads on Foreman’s chin - and Lyle was able to drop those shots on an even more defensively vulnerable Foreman than the version Ali fought - rusty George being in the midst of trying to reinvent himself post Zaire.

Again, the KDs suffered by Foreman in that fight were yielded by absolute, stand alone, power shots - and it’s somewhat arguable that Foreman wasn’t hit so cleanly nor so hard in his second career.

IF the assumption is that these heavier guys must’ve hit harder than a 220 lb Lyle due to their greater weight - then we have Foreman himself to defy that proposition - first career Foreman at 220 lbs to 230 lbs having punched harder than any of the behemoths he fought later in the piece.

A puncher is a puncher is a puncher - and “lil”231 lbs Gerry rocked 2nd career George with a single shot more than any of the other reputed power punching behemoths Foreman engaged in his second career.

No all conquering reason to think that the same doesn’t go for the 220 lb Lyle - George’s own nomination for hardest puncher.

Had Ronnie faced 2nd career Foreman and caught him exactly as he did in ‘76, good chance George would feel the same power he felt back then, for the most part - at the very least - if not feel that same power even more.

 

Nice post except for the conclusion