Did the thrilla in manilla change ali?

Its a degenerative thing IMO. Boxing for boxers is healthy in as much as you train and keep fit etc, but due to punches taken to certain parts of the body and certainly the head boxing becomes unhealthy for boxers.
Due to slowing down and his fighting style ( eg..against Foreman)..changing,he simply took to many shots overall and the deterioration was a gradual thing which became worse with each fight.
This particular fight was a gruelling battle but long fights against the likes of Bugner Norton Spinks Shavers etc will also have gradually added to the damage.
Brain damage to boxers is not an 'exact science' in that there is not a certain number of punches a fighter can take or not, as the case may be.
With Ali the deterioration was audible and noticeable and due to his profile it produced comment.
Ali simply couldn't walk away from boxing.He was addicted to the drama , fame and spotlight.
The irony for Ali was that boxing should merely have been his platform for a life ahead as a political figure or a high profile media career or as he put it 'a leader for his people'.Sadly he stayed far too long and what made him,became what broke him.
His 'entourage' also have a lot to answer for.
Many fighters who got out in one piece mentally and financially,had good people around them ,Lennox and Damiani are more recent examples.These guys had lifelong friends in their team who encouraged them to get out at the right time and also importantly help to look after their money.
Lennox is interesting as he fought to a similar age to Ali but his style ensured he probably took less shots.He still took plenty over a long career though and it shows that its not an exact science.The key with Ali was that the degeneration was noticeable from some way out and could have been acted upon.
Him fighting Holmes was a disgrace as at that point it was clear he was brain damaged.
He wasn't alone though,Frazier himself deteriorated with each fight,his speech becoming almost a mumble in later life.
Riddick Bowe suffered similarly but at a much younger age which shows it is not an exact science.
Interestingly though with Bowe,having got out of boxing at a relatively young age, his speech (which had become very slurred)actually sounded much better several years later.
In summary i don't think one fight can be blamed, it's a cumulative thing.The fight in Manilla was particularly tough on both fighters as i think by that time in their careers they were both in decline and at that time,such a tough fight was the last thing their health needed. Frazier and Ali was always going to be a tough fight if they fought once a year every year,they just seemed to cancel one another out.
2 great guys in their own ways.Desperately sad how what made them great,damaged their health so irreversibly.

 

All very astute. Except Manilla was the Tipping Point. It really was the one straw too many.

 

Oh, he was fiiiiiiiine. They were both fiiiiiiiiiiine.

 

You may well be right. I'm sure George Foreman didn't do Ali's health any good either.

Human heads just weren't designed to be clobbered to the point of near death.

 

Probably did, but I'm in agreement with Larry Holmes, that the Earnie Shavers fight really did him in.

 

Nice post Mark.

As said above, Shavers who was heavy-handed and who landed several clubbing blow on an already ailing Ali, certainly did him no favours.
But yeah, Manila could well have been the tipping point.

 

When you have a war like that at almost 34, after a long career with several very tough fights, that is bound to affect you.

He had had some very tough fights through '73 and '74 and wasn't quite the same after Zaire as it was. It's really quite amazing that he could stay competitive with the best even several years after Manilla.

 

IMO the the bouts that have caused more damage to Ali were Shavers and Holmes.

 

I've said this before but, despite their great scrap, it was two past-primers 'warring', both wanting their 2-1 nod in the 'trifecta'. That's why I simply can't call it one of the all-time great fights. Frazier was 'toast' prior to it and Ali was 'semi-toast' prior to it.

 

Cheers 'Fists'.

As stated by the thread starter it's a fight i don't watch.

 

Oy!!

 

Holmes done him in....that was one of the cruelest beatings any man has ever dealt another man...all in the interest of not koing Ali outright. It would have been more merciful if Holmes put him away in the 4th or 5th.

 

:deal

It just capped off many previous beatings he received. Even from fights he won.

 

I keep hearing how Ali was over the hill in this fight and maybe he was, but he was throwing some of his best combo's ever in this fight. Watched a couple of times lately and he was throwing 20 and more punch combinations coming off the ropes several times. I bet he threw more punches in this fight than in any other fight. All that despite taking some brutal punishment. Surely never the same after the fight, but what a fight it was