Did Wilder Cement his place among the ATG because of the Fury 3 fight?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by UFC2020, Oct 12, 2021.

  1. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Duhaupas and Washington both KOed the current WBA Mandatory contender Robert Helenius (who the Joshua-Usyk 2 winner must face next). Dillian Whyte couldn't stop Helenius.

    Helenius, Duhaupas, Washington, Whyte, Parker, Povetkin, Ruiz, Arreola ... they're all the same level.

    Had Wilder been upset by Arreola or Washington or Duhaupas ... and beat them in a rematch like he should've done the first time ... would you be lauding him for all the champs he beat? Just because Wilder didn't allow any of them to upset him and take his title doesn't mean they are any worse than freaking Andy Ruiz. Hell, a 40-something Arreola dropped Ruiz and nearly stopped him in Ruiz's last fight.

    Wilder beat the same calibre guys fighters like Joshua beat. Wilder just never lost to guys on that level, like Joshua did.

    Wilder knocked them all out, except for the World Champ Tyson Fury. But Wilder still managed to successfully defended his title against Fury in fight one -- and floored him twice in that bout.

    Joshua's never fought anyone as good as Fury. Let alone fought anyone that good three times.

    That's why the ATGs respect Wilder and see him as a peer.

    It would be like if Ali only lost to Frazier. Or Foreman only lost to Ali. Or Tyson only lost to Lewis.

    But Ali lost to Leon. Foreman lost to guys like Young and Morrison. Tyson lost to Buster and McBride and Danny Williams. Joshua lost to Ruiz.

    Wilder only lost to the very best heavyweight of his era. He knocked everyone else out.

    The ATGs see him as a fellow ATG. That's all that matters.

    You're not an ATG. He doesn't have to convince you of anything.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
  2. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Active Member Full Member

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    Helenius, Duhaupas, and Washington are not on Povetkins level or even close. Povetkins only prime loss is to a prime Wladimir Klitschko and he destroyed Duhaupas. There is a massive gap in quality. What makes you think Wilder himself is better than Povetkin? Povetkin has comparable wins and only one prime loss to a guy Wilder never fought.

    How is Joshua not fighting Fury relevant given Wilder lost to Fury 2x by stoppage? It would only be relevant if Wilder had won and he didn't. Many of the losses you mention were when the fighters in question were past it and thus irrelevant. Why would anyone bring up Ali Spinks?

    I can't fathom why Helenius would be a mandatory challenger based on beating Kownacki. If he does get a fight with Usyk or Joshua I expect they both beat him easily. This is the same Helenius that got a gift decision vs Chisora if you recall.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
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  3. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Povetkin failed his PED test against Stiverne and they flew Duhaupas in on 24 hours notice to be sacrificed to a guy (Povetkin) who had a full training camp and was juiced to the gills.

    Povetkin failed every drug test before every fight in 2016 when he fought Duhaupas. And Povetkin was so worried about losing to Stiverne, he cheated and got caught. The only difference between Povetkin and Jarrell Miller is Miller got banned for two years.

    Don't get me started on Povetkin.

    Point is, Helenius, Whyte, Washington, Ruiz, Arreola, etc. are all the same level. Throw them in a hat, pick one out none them is any better than the other on a given day.

    Just because Wilder didn't lose in an upset to one of them and guys like Joshua got upset doesn't make any of them better. (Hell, I'd give Helenius a good shot to beat Joshua now even after Duhaupas and Washington knocked him out.)

    When Wilder beat them, they were all ranked and they were all either undefeated or had one or two losses. The false story often repeated (and you repeated it again today) were that they were journeymen. They were the same calibre of fighters all the other champs were fighting. Wilder just wasn't losing to them in upsets. He was knocking them out.

    Wilder only lost to the best fighter in the whole sport. He KOed everyone else. That's ATG stuff. That's why he's among the best ever on the ALL-Time lists for most title defense wins, most title defense KOs, most consecutive title fights, etc.

    Because he's among the best ever. Those who are among the best ever agree that he is.

    It's been decided. No need to argue it anymore.

    The debate is over. Mike Tyson and George Foreman KOed the argument. Wilder is an ATG. So says two of the greatest who ever laced them up.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
  4. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Active Member Full Member

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    Duhaupas
    You can blame peds all you want but as I pointed out Povetkin was not losing to fighters of that level. And peds notwithstanding I'd probably favor him to knock Wilder out. Certainly his resume measures up to Wilders thus far. I guess if Wilder lost you could blame it on peds but I suspect lots of guys are juicing so I don't know how relevant it is. Wilder fought Ortiz who has been busted for peds so seemingly it's not a big deal in his view.
     
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  5. red corner

    red corner Active Member Full Member

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    Wbc ratings do not count!!! Ring magazine ratings are accepted as fair / better. Aside form going ( 0-3 2 ko losses to Fury ) the draw was bogus ) how many of those guys were ring rated, active and under the age of 36? Meanwhile Wilder is younger and in his prime. I count very few. I see easy matches vs unranked ring magazine guys.

    Povetkin in my opinion would have won, except the drug test, which wilder used as an excuse, becuse he was winless vs Fury when they agreed to not reveal the test.
     
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  6. Surrix

    Surrix Boxing Addict Full Member

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    This is not how resumes are evalued for HOF or ATG.
    Ali was Olympic Gold medalist, Wilder wasn't and this sorry, does matters, likes this reality or does not likes.
    Ali was de facto an Undisputed after he had beat Liston 2X and Patterson : 3 these fights in row.
    Ali had WBA and WBC belts, Wilder had only 1 belt: WBC belt.

    Ali from 1965 th already was >>>>> more than all Wilder's resume, both am and pro resumes together.
    Frazier's and Foreman's resumes too are better than Wilder's resume.
    Patterson's resume I think too was better than Wilder's resume.
    Yeah, he had lost fights, what from this?
    He was Olympic Gold medalist, when in pros Johansson had KOed him, he didn't had gypsy curse, he had 2nd and 3 rd fights vs the same Johansson and won these 2 fights in row via stoppage. He was 2-1 vs Johansson.
    Yeah, he lost title vs Liston, what from this?
    He at least didn't had costume and gypsy curse problem.
     
  7. The Long Count

    The Long Count Boxing Junkie Full Member

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  8. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Active Member Full Member

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    Wilders legacy rests to some degree on where you rank him in his own era. Generally guys who are number 1 or 2 in their era are considered great whereas from 3 downwards they are much less likely to be considered great.

    Right now it looks like Wilder might end up behind Fury, Klitschko, Usyk and Povetkin but that could change
     
  9. Surrix

    Surrix Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I think that yes. Povetkin for sure isn't ATG but I think <37 y.o Povetkin was better than both these: Whyte and Wilder.
    Oh, yeah, Povetkin was 225.75lbs vs 241.5lbs then reigning champ Wlad and had lost via decision. Wlad then had bunch with belts, looks that 4 or 5 belts.
     
  10. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Again, Wilder was never The Champ in the division, never beat the best in the division.

    So put him in the bracket with all other HWs who held a title but never actually beat the best in their division.

    Just don't pretend he's an ATG.
     
  11. JDub

    JDub Active Member Full Member

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    This needs a poll surely.
     
  12. The Long Count

    The Long Count Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Wilder never fought anyone of note to earn his wbc elimination bout against Malik Scott. Look up his resume going into that bout it is pathetic. Then that bout itself looks like a clear dive. That earns him a date with Bermane Stiverne (whom the wbc would never allow to unify with Wlad). Stiverne a Don King fighter somehow received the shorter end of the purse despite being champion. Wilder wins and low and behold the first defense he makes is against another Don King fighter Molina. A school teacher and part time boxer not ranked in the top 50 by boxrec at the time. Sure nothing strange going on with all of this? Wilder wins and begins one of the softest reigns ever, Szpilka, Washington, Duhaupas, Shot Arreola, rematch with fat shot Stiverne, etc etc. Meanwhile no attempt at Wlad, no fight with Joshua, No fight with Povetkin (which could of been made despite the meldonium fiasco), no Pulev when he was still relevant. Etc etc. Along comes Fury, out of the ring on Drugs and alcohol for years while battling depression. Wilder thinks it’s another easy cherry pick but disaster strikes. Fury is too skilled and befuddles Wilder for 12 rounds only creating drama by getting tagged in the 12th. Two more fights and 0 wins for Wilder. Fury being larger than life elevates the entire trilogy into something memorable and Wilder shows guts by getting his butt whipped but not quitting. That’s his career.
     
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  13. JDub

    JDub Active Member Full Member

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    Hahaha, that's priceless, you forgot about defeating the boogyman grandpa Ortiz but the rest was perfect.
     
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  14. Mitch87

    Mitch87 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Getting beat for the 3rd by Fury (a Fury who hasn't beaten anyone of note since Wlad over 5 years ago) and having never beaten anybody that wasn't a tin can makes him a ATG?

    Got to be joking? Even Chisora is ahead of Wilder for ATG shouts and that says it all.
     
  15. BubblesUK

    BubblesUK Active Member Full Member

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    Well, if getting whooped twice by Fury is a positive thing for your resume then getting whooped twice by a fitter, PED'd up Fury AND whooped by Vitali, Usyk and Haye must be pretty solid, too, right?

    I mean, wouldn't want to be inconsistent, would we?