Discuss: The Most 'Limited' ATG Ever?

So is Monzon.

It's 'most limited' not 'least technical'. And as I said, Canto did what he did brilliantly, but he was a very, very one dimensional fighter, regardless of whether or not you're an admirer it's impossible to deny.

 

James Toney that is a hoot, its like saying Ali coz he was **** against berbick

 

my thoughts entirely. had every ounch in the book. was fast and had decent power at middle and super middle. incredibly tough and could fight different sorts of fights. eg nunn stalking him down, barkley in the pocket

 

Watched toney v Barkley last night when he put on an old school clinic, he had every punch in the book, unreal defensive skills

 

Again, James Toney was at his best when his man was right in front of him.

Poor footwork
No lateral movement
Not great going forward

No one is saying he's ****, and what has Ali-Berbick gotta' do with it?! If you think people are making this claim based on the Lebedev fight you're very much mistaken.

Watch Toney against Griffin and Tiberi. Abysmal.

 

As for Barkley has was made for Toney which proves my point exactly. Case in point: Kalambay, a far more versatile defensive operator than Toney had schooled Barkley prior.

Toney was as natural a fighter as you're going to get. But in terms of his application he struggled when his opponent didn't play into his hands. Comparing him with Ali is amongst the worse comparisons I've ever heard to be frank.

 

Nah, Monzon looked pretty awful technically. That's the whole point of coming away wondering how he did what he did when you watch him. Monzon and Canto are at so far opposite ends of the spectrum it ain't even funny.

Only limitation Canto had was lack of power, which is something you can't help in most cases. He had everything else. Guile, footwork, brillient defense and counter punching. He didn't have a safety net like one dimensional fighters have, which means he had to be more rounded and stay so on point. Most of his defenses coming away from home to boot.

 

marciano .... 67 inch reach at hw..

 

I'm sorry but I don't see this at all. Despite the aesthetic qualities of his application, he worked off a mean jab, had timing, range, and combination punching down to the most minute of perfections. His one-two is one of the greatest ever.

When you're talking about two fighters that dominated two of the greatest era's for their respective divisions I don't think you can say either man is at the opposite end of the spectrum. And if either of 'em are in front, it's the Argie.

And Monzon lacked speed, which is why he had to be on point. Canto did have all of those things, which is exactly what made him capable of pulling off the only thing he was capable of doing. Do not mistake flair for diversity. The bold point, I assume, is some kind of point about one dimensional fighters relying on some kind of power, which I don't agree with at all.

11 of Monzons title fights were outside of his home country. He took the title from Benvenuti in Italy also. So Monzon is on par there.

What of Canto fights with Vibonchai and Park, where he looked far from invincible? In fact, in the Park fight he looked completely useless and that is not an overstatement, one of the most dominant Elite level performances of the lower weight classes. Who ever did that to Monzon?

As I said earlier on in the thread, one dimensional does not pertain to being a basic fighter. But Canto, as refined as his style was (hence why it worked despite him being smaller than everyone else and having no power) could fight only one way. Hence, he was a one dimensional fighter. And as he ranks in the top 100, and certainly comparing to other fighters of the highest calibre, he is one of the least diverse operators.

So I think he does belong in this thread.

 

Not a humongous disadvantage against 6'0 men weighing around 185lbs. Didn't fight any massive Heavys.

Against Riddick Bowe, massive disadvantage ;-) :good

 

Even though Toney had lazy feet and didn't like movers. He was actually pretty good at stalking when he wanted to. He could fight so well under extreme fatigue late in fights. In fact i've hardly seen a better pinpoint late round fighter, he could concentrate under serious fatigue and hit you clean. Check the Prince Charles Williams fight.

Toney's biggest gift was also his biggest curse. And that was his problem.

 

Pretty good? Yes.

Not great? Yes.

Also, his offence was fairly limited in terms of letting rip when going forward. When peeps were coming at him he could slip and pop as great as anyone.

As for late rounds, him nearly getting rid of McCallum was scary. Mike was ****ed by that point and Toney piled it on.

 

I didn't wanna turn this into Monzon vs. Canto. lol They were 'opposite ends..' not in ranking as you seem to have took it, but in the way they went about their work and their technical prowess.

- Monzon for me wasn't technically that refined at all. If you view him with a strictly technical eye you don't come away that impressed. Yes he controlled range well, that was his biggest strength as i've already said. But he was also robotic, somewhat clumsy, lacking form and had a lumbering awkwardness. Not technical!

- Canto wasn't the fastest either, he was just very quick in the mind. If we're saying Canto was one dimensional because he fought on the backfoot with great defense and counter punching. Just because he didn't KO guys then we'll have to put a lot of fighters in that one dimensional category. Calling Canto one dimensional is like calling Willie Pep one dimensional. You're stretching that scope a little bit.

The reason i pointed out his away defenses was not to have a go at Monzon. But to point out why he had to be so on point with his lack of power. If you know you're not ganna stop your opponent and you're away from home, you'd better put on a serious clinic and be so rounded, skillful and awesome workrate to make it plane.

In just 2 years Canto fought away from home around 8 times and they were in the backyard of his opponents. He had no margin for error.

Martin Vargas, Bertulio Gonzalez, Avelar, Takata, Oguma. All very good to great wins. Most of his defeats came at the end and when he was very green early on.

He was well past prime against Chan.

Maybe we have different interpretations of what this thread means, but Canto does NOT belong in it, imho. :good

 

TBH lads, the wording of the thread title gives a fair bit of scope for interpretation. Thats why I didn't think Jones jr was a bad call from a certain standpoint.

 

Me neither :good

Again, these are more aesthetics. These may have been how he looked, but IMO, the way he broke down opponents, aand the fact he worked off such an astute jab, IMO showed a knowledge of the technical aspects of the game, even if he didn't look all that great. He was extremely effective with a basic game.

Again, as I've stressed many times, that is completely the opposite of what I'm saying. My point is, that all he could do is go on the backfoot and step in with counters, repeat. He could do only one thing. That is because there was but one dimension to his game.

Yeah, great wins, and I've never said anything to the contrary. In fact, I've never said anything negative about Canto whatsoever, and seeing as how highly I rated that era of Flys in this very same thread I think it's fair to say I'm well aware of his accomplishments and skill, and am not taking that into account in my analysis.

Despite being past his best against Park, he was totally outgunned, outboxed, outcountered. Not only past his best, but that version of Park was a horrible matchup for him at any time of his career IMO. I agree that Cantos reflexes had dipped a bit, but the fact he had nothing else to dip into again confirms the fact he was a one dimensional fighter.

I think we have different interpretations of what one dimensional means. :good