Do i underrate Bowe?

I said not skill wise, but mentally. Bowe had tactics that threw Evander out of his game and sucked him into a brawl. Bowe wanted Holyfield to brawl with him because thats more of his fight and out Evander's comfort zone. When Evander would box, then he would be doing well. But it would only be a matter of time until Bowe was able to get under his skin. If Evander didn't have Stewart as his trainer for the rematch, then he would have been sucked into the same trap.

Also, Holyifeld WAS having a heart attack in the Moorer fight. When he fought Bowe, he was having the flu or the steriods was having an effect, it wasn't nearly as serious as the Moorer fight. The doctors said after the Moorer fight that his heart was not functioning properly and he was also banned in a few states because of that.

 

hemorrhoid?

 

It's that time of day

 

Its definately possible but i think that Holyfield/Bowe one would have been the same result. That peak Bowe was a force to be reckoned with and you have to dig up one of the greats in order to beat that version of Bowe.

Notice in the second and third fight that when Evander choose to box, then he would be having his way with Bowe. When he choose to brawl, the fight would even up and Bowe would look his best because Holyfield was allowing him to because he was fighting his fight. Stewart went so far as to jump in the ring and tackle Holyfield when he fought with Bowe after the bell because he wanted Evander to stay focused. Stewatd was a great trainer for Evander.

I think it was more of Evander having the flu but its possible. His cheeks were not puffy and he was actually about to stop Bowe until he gassed out. When he fought Moorer, it really showed. His cheeks were puffy and he didn't have any gas in the tank at all. He also only fought for the first minute of every round and stared at Moorer while being out boxed. and Despite all of this, i still thought Evander won the fight.

 

Bowe did own Holyfield. The only close fight they had was the second fight which wasnt really a loss at all.

Fight one was all Bowe's. He was spectacular slugging it out with Holy in that second round-the fur was really flying! When you seen Lewis fight like that? Answer: never. Bowe's physical superiority and fierce body punching paid off handsomely in the 11th as he beat Evander from pillar to pillar, ring post to ring post and had him gasping for air. Evander reminded me of Art Frias after that first round beating from Mancini--a real mess.

Bowe's heart can never be questioned either. When Evander went to work on him in their 3rd, he knocked Riddick to the canvas and looked like he almost had him but due to some quick thinking, Bowe stalled Evander's advances by keeping that mammoth left in his face to kill the momentum. That's adaptation, that's heart and will to win. Shades of Saad Muhammud.

By the time the 8th started, Evander was in the mood to rumble but Bowe showed Holi who the master of rumbling was and finished him right away to settle the series. I was in fistic heaven once more,, boxing's best moment since Terry Norris beat on Sugar Ray Leonard's head.

 

I don't know Godking. Stevie Farhood ranked Evander #3 heavyweight just behind Ali & Louis so where does that put Bowe, the man who annilhilated him? Bowe was a winner from the day he was born and never actually lost a fight in his life. That loss to Lewis as an amateur was due to politics so Lewis shouldnt be bragging that he knocked him out.

 

I don't think that Bowe really defeated a peak Holyfield, and certainly not twice. By 1992, Evander was already showing signs of dererioration in flat performances against an old Holmes and Bert Cooper. By the time they faced each other for the third time, Holy was some 33 or 34 years old, and had on and off health issues forcing him to take time off from the ring. His peak was likely between 1988-1991. He was arguably at his absolute best in October of 1990, when he beat Douglas. He would not fight Bowe for another two years. Again, we're talking PEAK, not just PRIME.

A good win, but Cooper was iffy when it came time to showing up in good shape. Foreman destroyed Cooper in only two rounds as well, and its hard to say if he was any better or worse for that fight.

Here's the key difference. Bowe was a 25 year old defending world champion with 33 pro fights facing Ferguson, whereas Tyson was a 19 year old prospect with 17 bouts for his fight with Ferguson. It could also be said, that Jesse was better in 1986 than he was in 1993. Saying that Bowe looked more impressive against Ferguson is somewhat irrelovant given the circumstances.

Using this comparison to make Bowe's win over Ferguson look better, is stretching things a bit, and for more reasons than I even care to get into. There are a fair amount of them listed in my previous post.

Agreed, this was a good win for Bowe.

A lot of sorting out needed here.

First of all, Everett Martin was hardly a contender. He was a journeyman who everyone had beaten at one point in time or another. Elijah Tillery was absolutely nobody. I saw his first meeting with Bowe, and it was quite disgraceful. Micheal Dokes and Tony Tubbs were both past prime fighters, and some feel Tubbs may actually have deserved the nod in the decision. I myself struggled to give Bowe the win. Golata basically kicked his ass twice, before being disqualified for low blows, ( Golata's fault ).

Agree to some extent. Bowe managed to survive 44 pro fights without ever being Ko'd, and took two out of three against a concensus all time great. He defeated several prospects and contenders who at the time were at least respectable. He was also a former olympian who medaled at the 88' Seoul games. This was a very good resume, but it pretty much ends there. Anything else is purely speculation on where his potential may have taken him.

 

I really don't see who else Bowe could of faced, sans the obvious pick in Lennox Lewis.

Towards the end of his career he fought Hide, Mathis, Donald and Jorge Luis Gonzalez in a row, all four being undefeated prospects.

 

Bowe lost that second fight with Holyfield in many eyes really lost to and old Tubbs and the only reason that he does not have two losses to Golota is Golotas own stupidity.

He lost To Lewis in the Olympics nothing political about that amatuer KO.

Winners dont break up the belts and shamelessly duck their amatuer conquerors. and no Bowe did not ''annihilate Holyfield he barely won the trilogy.

Bowe legay truth be told is pathetic.

 

He beat prime Holyfield. Evander was unbeaten and was undisputed champion at the time. The heart conditions and sicknessess happened well after this. This is back when Evander could fight for the full 12 and not become gassed out at all. You just said that Holyfield was in his peak when he fought Douglas, he fought Bowe only 2 years later. Also, that was around the time when Larry Holmes was upsetting future stars like Ray Mercer ect. Take nothng away from Bowe, it was a great win for him over one of the greatest fightes of that era and of all time.

I have never seen Cooper not show up for a fight and i don't really believe that ''he didn't show up'' logic. If one fighter looked better against him than others, than its another situations where styles makes fights. This was a great win for Bowe over a top contender, especially for the simple fact that he only had 19 fights at the time.

Yeah, :-( this is always the excuse from a Tyson fan reguarding this situation. Fuergeson at the time was suppose to be a stepping stone for Tyson and Tyson couldn't knock him out. Tyson was blowing out everyone at the time and was seemingly invincible and he couldn't knock this guy out? I remember Fuegerson upsetting Mercer in that same year of 1993, which is the same year Bowe destroyed him so obviously he was still good. Mercer also later became champion after that.

Take nothing away from Tubbs, but Bowe was not at 100% at all. Bowe at 100% peak Holyfield the first time. That was the best Bowe that anyone has ever seen.

Everett Martin upset Witherspoon in 1992 and that was a great win.

Agreed, im not trying to make him out to be a great based on his accomplishments, but he was not overrated nor was he anything to played with. There are a few greats that i would favor Bowe over to be honest.

 

No one's taking anything away from Bowe, but you claimed that he beat a PEAK Holyfield twice. Again, I'm not talking prime, I'm using the word that you used which was PEAK. Holyfield was not at his peak in late 1992, and he was certainly past it in 1995 for the third fight.

Who gives a **** if he knocked out Bert Cooper early??? Lot's of fighters have, and by the way, he was a fringe contender/journeyman who had the tendency to show up good or bad on an inconsistant basis. Also, he was NOT a top contender when Bowe beat him in 1990. It wasn't until Cooper put together a string of wins following that fight, that he would gain recognition as a top 10 guy. After he defeated prospect Joe Hipp in late 1991, he was THEN considered as a last minute replacment for Tyson against Holyfield. By the way, Cooper was not the first peroson who was picked as a replacment. Francesco Damiani was the man who holy was supposed to fight when Tyson was incarcerated, but backed out due to an injury in training.

Oh for Christ's sake, Ferguson was 36 years old, and was 8-9 in his last 17 fights over the previous 8 years between May of 1985 to may of 1993. Do you really want to know what happened in that Mercer fight? Ray suffered an injury just days before the bout, and his people tried to talk him into backing out of the fight. Mercer knew that cancelling the Ferguson fight meant that he might blow his shot against Bowe 3 months later, as the fight was already being planned. He took the bout figuring that Ferguson was an easy cake walk of an opponent and halfway through the fight, was cought on microphone whispering to Ferguson to take a dive, but Jesse wouldn't. That fight had dirt written all over it, and the only reason Jesse got a shot at bow, was because he got a lucky break over Mercer who everyone was really expecting to be the next contender. As for Tyson's performance against Ferguson, if you really think that a 19 year old prospect should be penalized for not looking as good as a 25 year old world champion, then I strongly have to question your judgement. This sounds oftly a lot like a Bowe building session.

So you're willing to make concessions for the fact that Bowe wasn't at his best, but are unwilling to make the same allowence for Tubbs being past it? Not to mention, a minute ago, you said that I was making up excuses for Tyson not looking his best against Ferguson, because he was still a work in progress, yet now you apply the same excuse for Bowe? There are more inconsistancies in your philosphy than I even care to count.

Did you see this fight??? I certainly did, and I can tell you that it was highway robbery, not to mention one of the shittiest fights I've ever seen. Besides which, barely eeking a gift decision over a past prime Witherspoon, did not make up for the numerous times that Martin had gotten pounded. Believe me, he was no contender. And trust me when I say that you don't want to push the issue. If we were to start a thread asking people if they agreed with you on that one, you'd clearly be the laughing stock of the forum.

By the way, Martin's win over Witherspoon came AFTER the Bowe fight. At the time, Martin was on an 8 fight losing streak and was not even a top 100 guy.

Fair enough, but you may wish to rethink some of the things you said earlier on in this post.