Do most good boxers trounce pre-Zaire Foreman?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by prime, Jan 15, 2008.


  1. prime

    prime BOX! Writing Champion Full Member

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    "SONNY'S JAB" HAS WRITTEN:

    I think 70s Foreman has become overrated.

    Sure, if you add up what Foreman did in the 70s with his epic comeback in the 80s/90s then it's fair to call him one of the greats.

    How many good boxers did Foreman beat in the 70s ?

    Frazier plodded straight in and got clobbered, he probably would have lost to other big punchers with that strategy, in that condition. Some of you guys here reckon Frazier AT HIS BEST loses to big strong punchers, yet Foreman's whole reputation is built on this.

    Norton, according to his own trainer, couldn't cope with big punchers.

    These are good wins for Foreman.

    Norton and Frazier are very good wins for Foreman, and outside of that he's got little else in the 70s. He's a big ox with a monster punch, but I dont see him beating lots of good boxers or even semi-skillful punchers. Ron Lyle had him in all sorts of trouble, and Foreman had to hit Lyle hundreds of times to finish him off.
    Jimmy Young beat Foreman. Ali knocked Foreman out.

    I respect Foreman for his monstrous strength and power and mostly for his MENTAL STRENGTH in his comeback, but he openly admits to avoiding good boxers his entire career. He played the "monster" role and was pitted against cannon fodder, tomato cans, most of the time.

    If Ali had gotten the Frazier rematch in 1972 and won, Foreman would never have been champion.
    I dont want to devalue his win over Frazier too much, it's a great win, but Frazier was not at all sophisticated in his approach and was made-to-measure for Foreman.

    Any decent heavyweight champion would spear Foreman with straight punches, left jabs and straight rights, and duck or smother his wild swings. He's too unpolished, and he's open. And after 6 or 7 rounds George is useless.

    That's the way I see it.

    The only way I would rate Foreman above Walcott is because Foreman has the amazing comeback - that's the only thing that really justifies him being put in the top bracket. Walcott beat more contenders, more good boxers.

    Frankly, head-to-head, I see Walcott making a fool out of him with right hand counters - like Lyle should have done - and boxing skills. END QUOTE.

    MONTE D. COX HAS WRITTEN ON COXCORNER.TRIPOD.COM:
    At his peak Foreman had a true aura of invincibility. When he glared down opponents with his baleful stare it was not an act of false bravado as it was with some fighters, it was out of a belief that no man could stand up to his crushing power. George Foreman, in his prime, truly believed that he was unbeatable.

    In Zaire Muhammad Ali defeated George and shattered his aura of invincibility. The mistake that many make when considering this fight is the misguided belief that Ali “out-boxed” George. Muhammad Ali did not defeat George Foreman by keeping the fight at ring center; he did not beat Foreman by keeping him off of him at all. George cut the ring down on Ali and forced him to fight off the ropes. In his autobiography The Greatest My Own Story Ali said, “All during training I had planned to stay off the ropes…but now I’ve got to change my plans. Sadler and Moore have drilled George too well. He does his job like a robot but he does it well…I’m famous for being hard to hit in the first rounds, but no fighter can last fifteen if he has to take six steps to his opponents three.”

    The only reason Ali won that fight in Zaire was because Muhammad had a cast iron chin and could absorb tremendous punishment to the body. Only Ali’s incredible ability to take a beating and his enormous will allowed him to survive George’s punches that night. If Ali takes a punch a little less than what he did he would have been finished by his own admission. Ali said in his autobiography that Foreman had him out on his feet but didn’t know it.

    How many people could take a body shot the way Ali could? He survived Zaire and Manila as well. Foreman landed some hellacious body shots on Ali. They were exceedingly violent. In Muhammad Ali His Life and Times by Thomas Hauser Foreman is quoted as saying, “I hit Muhammad with the hardest shot to the body that I ever delivered on any opponent. Anybody else in the world would have crumbled. Muhammad cringed; I could see it hurt. And then he looked at me; he had that look in his eyes, like he was saying I’m not going to let you hurt me.” Archie Moore also recalled, “George threw some rather lethal punches in the direction of Ali’s cranium.” Ali did not beat George with clever boxing that night in Africa. He beat him with physical and mental toughness.

    Not too many fighters who ever lived, and possibly only Muhammad Ali, could defeat the George Foreman of that fight. Ali could box, move, was fast on his feet, had exceptional head movement and anticipation but George cut the ring on him very well in Zaire. Ali did not outbox Foreman. He outsmarted him yes, but mostly he toughed it out where most heavyweights would have wilted. Few men besides Ali could take the shots that he did. Few who slugged it out with a prime Foreman would have hopes to survive. After losing to Ali, George, who had thought himself unbeatable, began to doubt himself and changed his style.

    George was devastated by his loss to Ali, after taking time off he changed trainers hiring Gil Clancy and began to fight at a more measured pace. Although George had some success even at an old age fighting in a more controlled manner, the comeback version was never as good as the original seek and destroy version.

    In his first comeback fight George Foreman took the most dangerous opponent he could find. After 15 months of ring inactivity he took on Ron Lyle who just 10 months previous had knocked out highly regarded heavyweight hitter Earnie Shavers. Lyle had come off the deck to defeat Shavers in a match between two of the divisions all time biggest hitters. Lyle was himself a super-heavyweight who stood 6’3 ½” had an 80 inch reach and weighed 220 pounds of solid muscle. He could jab, hook off the jab and had a very powerful right hand. Foreman was now trying to pace himself and began to fight at a more relaxed pace. The result was that George was not quite as aggressive as he had been in his earlier fights. The first two rounds were tentative as George attempted to hold back and there was frequent jabbing by both men. Foreman proved his heart and chin in this fight when it exploded into a wild brawl reminiscent of Jack Dempsey and Luis Firpo some 50 years previous with both men hitting the deck. Foreman demonstrated that he could win a war of attrition and come out on top by knocking Lyle out in a see saw battle that ended in a knockout victory for Foreman in the fifth round. Even a rusty and hesitant Foreman was nearly impossible to beat in a brawl.
    Those who believe that any “clever boxer” type could beat George often give the Jimmy Young fight as an example. Foreman showed up for this fight in San Juan the day before the fight and didn’t give himself time to get acclimated to the heat. He paced himself, fighting in his newfound measured style and did not throw a significant punch for the first 5 rounds. This was all wrong for him. The Foreman of Zaire would have tracked down Young, forced him to the ropes, went to the body with power and belted him out inside of a few short rounds. The 1973-74 Foreman, the one who cut the ring and really went after his man was the best Foreman. The George who lost to Young never really went after him. The Foreman who fought at a measured pace just was not the real Foreman. END OF QUOTE.

    Arguments could be made for both viewpoints. I personally think George Foreman was a tremendous fighter, head-to-head one of the very greatest of all time. His one weapon was power, but what a weapon it was! And in Round 1, a floating Ali could avoid him for just over a minute before getting nailed by a grinning Foreman. He was a crushing juggernaut.

    I think it's pretty suicidal to retreat from him and very few men could take him out employing tit for tat.

    If anything, I think Foreman became underrated due to his shocking loss to Ali; had there been no Ali, Foreman might have broken all men and records.
     
  2. Sonny's jab

    Sonny's jab Guest

    For all Foreman's strength and power, the "science" of boxing still applies. Good strong straight-hitters who can box and move a bit can beat Foreman. Sure, he can flail some down with his haymakers, but it's not guaranteed.
    The man was crude as hell.

    Foreman went 37-0 against mostly nondescript opponents, (and looked easy to hit even against a few of them) and then just two quick impressive KOs of Frazier and Norton are supposed to tell us that you cant outbox him ?
    I cant fathom that.

    Ali made up his tactics as he went along. Yes, maybe Foreman cut the ring off, but I dont rate Ali's ability to use the ring in the 70s, or rather I think he had a penchant for going to the ropes, showing contempt for opponents and all that. The fight is an unusual one, and doesn't prove anything positive about Foreman to me. Ali had him rocked with straight punches in the opening moments, Ali went at him.

    I think Monte Cox (or Frank Lotierzo or whoever wrote that article) is just stating an opinion that salvages some of the "invincibility" myth for Foreman.
    "You have to be Ali to beat the "otherwise invincible" Foreman" ...... Nah, I aint buying it.
     
  3. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    .... Or he would've lost to someone like Buster Douglas. The fact that Foreman embarrassed himself against one of the greatest fighters (past his best) makes up for it a bit.


    Still, i'm on Sonny's Jab's side here. I think Young would've always beaten him. Foreman's defence has always been wide-open. Frazier, being a slow starting swarmer, couldn't offer him much and Norton always got knocked out by punchers. Then came a past his best Ali, Lyle and Young. Ali and Young beat Foreman and Lyle came extremely close. You can be pretty sure that had he faced the same versions of Lyle and Young pre-Ali, he'd have similar problems if not more (for instance, punching himself out against Young).
     
  4. My dinner with Conteh

    My dinner with Conteh Tending Bepi Ros' grave again Full Member

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    I'm too sure about Young beating him, especially as he nearly finished Young in their fight. The 1973 version who felt invincible might have completed the job. I mean, enough people think the Joe of 70 might have beaten Foreman but nothing in their fights tells us this. At least George had some success (vs Young) to believe he could have done better 4 or 5 years earlier. That's a bit like saying "I believe Douglas would have always beaten Tyson", which, personally I don't at all, although a few people seem to think so. Nothing wrong with them thinking that of course.
     
  5. Sonny's jab

    Sonny's jab Guest

    And who were all the slick well-schooled top-flight boxers that Foreman was beating 4 or 5 years earlier ?
    There were none, unless you consider Boone Kirkman and Ted Gullick the elite.

    Young couldn't even punch hard. Maybe on another night Foreman MIGHT have finished him.
    Still, there's just as much evidence to say Young outboxes him. Young can, so top all-time boxers who could actually punch a bit would too.
    Guys with fast straight right-hand counters, decent jabs, decent footwork.

    At least Tyson can say he beat decent boxers who were similar to Buster Douglas. But none of them doubled-up on the jab, moved constantly while exerting pressure like Douglas did, most tried a lame version of stick-and-move, or just flat-out ran and clinched. I think the Tokyo version Douglas beats any version of Tyson, so shoot me.
     
  6. My dinner with Conteh

    My dinner with Conteh Tending Bepi Ros' grave again Full Member

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    We know your whole agenda is not rating fighters that beat fighters you like (so discrediting Foreman, Tyson, Lewis is the norm for you). Of course, Foreman didn't beat any Young-a-likes years earlier (maybe Peralta was nearest) but at least he had him in trouble, which, like i said, suggests he could have finished him years earlier, but not definitely. Tyson too had Douglas in trouble, so this may have also happened with the 87 Tyson. Whereas, Joe was mashed, which would have happened every time they fought. :yep


    Edit. Of course, Tyson didn't beat Holy but the rivalry remains...
     
  7. My dinner with Conteh

    My dinner with Conteh Tending Bepi Ros' grave again Full Member

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    ...and by the way a retort on the lines of "well, going by that criterion then Ali didn't trouble Holmes much, so there's no case to sugest...blah...blah.." etc, isn't acceptable. We're dealing with fighters who, while maybe not total 'prime' are still somewhere in the same building as their peak quotient.
     
  8. My dinner with Conteh

    My dinner with Conteh Tending Bepi Ros' grave again Full Member

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    ...and now I have to **** off because tonight is My Dinner with Harvey & Kendall.


    This content is protected
     
  9. groove

    groove Well-Known Member Full Member

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    ofcourse 70s Foreman is overrated. He only KO'd Frazier and Norton both in 2 rounds. Any fighter who does that has to be overrated NOT! Man that is one dumb statement to make. I've heard Frazier being overrated too and even Ali. Now Foreman. No coincidence all 3 were former Olympic Gold Winners but maybe that achievement is overrated too which is bull****. Foreman wasn't the same after his loss. Mentally weaker which is a big problem for a power fighter. He needs to win quick and won't try and pace like he did v Young. Early 70s Foreman would've KO'd him and not worried about the later rounds. Ali beat him by being smart and more importantly being a tough SOB.
     
  10. Sonny's jab

    Sonny's jab Guest

    My "whole agenda" ?
    Who are these fighters I like ?

    I'm just making an honest critical assessment of Foreman. I'm not spitefully "discrediting" him.
    I like Foreman. I consider him a great fighter.

    Yes, it's possible.
    But Foreman's flaws were exposed, again.
    (BTW, Peralta was no slickster in my opinion, nor was he a convincing heavyweight "contender")

    Yes, Foreman mashes Frazier, like George Kennedy and Paul Newman.

    But we're talking about better boxers, counter-punchers, boxer-punchers. Straight-hitting sharp-shooter fighters who can move a bit, not just straight-ahead. Not Joe Frazier.
     
  11. NickHudson

    NickHudson Active Member Full Member

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    SJ,

    I agree with your general points about Foreman's crude style.

    However, in his defence he had an excellent, accurate, stiff jab (have you seen the Chuvalo fight, he throws it round after round with impunity). I would also point out that when he crudely smashed away he was also highly accurate. This was clear from both the Norton and Frazier fight where most of his 'wild' swinging blows actually landed on the button.

    Anyhow, whats your opinion on:

    1) The outcome of Zaire Foreman versus the version of Young that Goerge actually faced? How do you see Young getting past those initial few rounds given that Young has a puny body and, while cute, wasnt particularly quick.
    2) The impact of the Zaire loss on Foremans mindset.

    My own belief is that 1976 Foreman was a completely different animal to the 1974 version. At top leve elite sport mental strength counts for so much, and in a few months Foreman went from believing he could do anything, to doubting/ second guessing himself.

    This makes the analysis more troublesome than a styles comparison IMO.

     
  12. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I think that Foreman was always going to be a short reigning champion one way or another because he had never been beyond 10 rounds.

    The bottom like is that every champion either looses their title by knockout or gets taken the distance eventually however effective they are as a finisher.

    What I would not like to put money on is who whould be the man to do it.
     
  13. Russell

    Russell Loyal Member Full Member

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    Most good boxers "trounced" George even after he came back.

    Freakin' Axel Schulz and Tommy Morrison fought smart and both beat him, more or less.
     
  14. BUDW

    BUDW Boxing Addict Full Member

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    No George fell for the rope a dope and that was his undoing a rematch would have been quite diffrent, Foreman got a raw deal in the Young fight I seen it thought Foreman won,remember Young ducking out side the ropes to avoid Foreman punches? at the least Young should have lost points for that tactic maybe some would have dq'd him after the 2nd-3rd time at any rate I thought big George won the fight out right.
     
  15. My dinner with Conteh

    My dinner with Conteh Tending Bepi Ros' grave again Full Member

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    Foreman didn't deserve the nod against Young. Come on, let's be realistic here.