Do people REALLY believe...

Marciano was not nearly as skilled as Tyson. Tyson was nearly impossible to hit at his peak. Marciano had chunks of his face knocked off by light heavyweights. I do not think Marciano would be on his feet very long against the big heavyweight punchers of today. There have been a lot of fighters since Marciano, some of whom weren't even champions or heavyweights, that could have beaten him. I think somebody like Juan Carlos Gomez, Jerry Quarry, Chris Byrd would have handled the Rock

 

Great video. That is a pretty good testament to how good Marciano's left hook was too.

 

Those smaller heavies are also alot faster than these big robots. Lewis was not fast, nor is Waldo or Vitali. They look fast but compare how fast Byrd was to either Klitschko. His bane of course was trying to box them from a distance. Getting inside on Lewis and either Klitschko is not hard, trying to box them from a distance is.

I think punch resistance definately helps as you get bigger and weigh more. But that would be a difference of like Sam Peter to Nicoli Valuev. I think Marciano's persistence, with that compact right hand and endless stamina would kill a guy like Waldo. He'd be done after 4-5 rounds.

 

Then why has there only been one heavyweight champion (and a poor one, at that) in the last 30 years that was sub-200lb?

Why if you make a list of the 15 hardest punchers of all time are most of those over 200lb?

There have always been big oafs, but guys like Riddick Bowe, Lennox Lewis and the Klitschko brothers are genuinly talented big men. And they're fast, too. Wlad's handspeed is the best in the division by FAR and he's 6'6 245lb. Ronnie Shields who trained Tyson said his hands were as fast as Tyson's. I would say Tyson's are a bit faster, but the point is obvious: he has a lot of speed. They're also very adept at keeping that distance by moving.

You say it's hard to box them from a distance but it's easy to get inside. Based on what? Sam Peter tried to get inside Wlad and could hardly do so nor managed to pin him on the ropes on a single occasion during all 12 rounds. Yes, Peter was somewhat inexperienced, but he's a big strong guy who bulls his way in and is hard to stop. So i don't see how it is easy to get inside. Byrd and Brock tried to get inside and they both said the same: It looks easy when training in the gym and watching the film, but in the ring it became apparant that it's very hard, especially when he graps you and leans on you. How much resistance can a 5'10 185lb guy give to a 6'6 245lb guy who's using his reach and range from the outside and is grapped on the inside where he likes to work? I agree that Marciano could knock Wlad out if he lands the right punch, but i think it will at the very least be very hard to land that punch. Not to mention most of Marciano's KO's came against 190lb fighters, not skilled big guys (Excepting Joe Louis, who was far past his best anyway).

 

Did you miss my example of Sam Peter?

Anyhow if you did, here is the basic breakdown.

Sam Peter is a strong guy no doubt. But what he isn't is experienced. He is learning on the job. He does not possess that compact right hand that guys like Dempsey, Marciano, Tyson, Louis, Foreman and other major punchers possessed.

Rocky had a short right hand that would close the gap very quickly on a large man trying to grab inside. Infact if you watch any of Marciano's fights, one thing is very clear: He can knock you out with less than a foot between you and him. He had that kind of power generation. Sam Peter does not possess that punch, and probably never will. The clinch, as cheat as it is, does not have a weakness to burly heavyweights who lack a short straight right hand. Sam is a wide puncher, the likes of which Evander Holyfield and later Tyson presented. These guys came from hooks and uppercuts. Wide punches that have trouble landing against a big clincher.

Do you know why John Ruiz didn't clinch James Toney? I'll tell you why. Toney is just small enough, and smart enough inside to know how to throw compact right hands and left hooks. The clinch wouldn't work. As little as Toney is, he'd get off on Ruiz inside before Ruiz could close the gap. This because of his smaller arms and base of gravity. Whereas a guy like Sam Peter just cannot do that. He's too wide and too burly to get those punches off properly. Let alone not experienced enough.

Also where Brock and Byrd went wrong on Waldo is a matter of style. Brock would get close but then step back out. Whether habitually or not, that is the wrong thing to do. While you don't want him to grab you, the way you have to stop that is to throw compact right hands inside. Brock of course is another guy who depends heavily on wide punches. Byrd for his part simply lacks the punching power. Plus he doesn't sit down on his punches to stay mobile.

Marciano is just that much smaller, and that much more compact. He didn't beat Joe Louis by being some average 180lber. He had the right mixture of speed, chin, stamina and power to do so. You can't tell me after 6 rounds of throwing punches that Waldo wouldn't be tired looking to grab. It's the only thing Steward trains him to do. And if Rocky was still around Waldo's goose would be cooked. As soon as he tries to lean in on a guy that small and compact he's gonna be eating a right hand. Maybe several at that.

 

He is too small but had huge power and against a guy like vlad who has a questionable chin, you never know what could happen. One of Marciano's punches could end the fight instantly but could Rocky land that big punch? It would be difficult against a skilled boxer like Vlad, although no doubt he would have a punchers chance. I mean what do you all think would happen if one of Marciano's huge punches connected with Klitchko's questionable chin............exactly. I would think Vlad could dominate this fight making Marciano look bad on the way to victory or Vlad could be cruising along making Marciano look bad and fall to the ground down for the count from a Rocky Marciano right hand.

 

Good debate here, without folks acting like jack asses too That pix by Redodd truely shows the size disparity. And Vitali has much more talent than Valuev.

Haven't you heard, punching power diminishes greatly after 190lb :roll: Some are confusing diminishing increases in punching power per increase in weight (debateable) with the notion that a skilled 190lb big puncher is almost "equal" to a skilled 240+lb big puncher. This is wishful thinking.

You didn't get the haters memo? Fighters like LL, K bros are slow and robotic with glass jaws :-( The big oafs that Dempsey, Louis, or Rocky beat would be destroyed easily by the LL/K bros type HW. The latter, as you state, are genuinly talented big men. Wlad's biggest chink in his armor (like LL) is a mediocre chin - "glass" is just a haters exaggeration.

Marciano was a special fighter, I'm not knocking him or guys like Tyson one bit. Yes AD, Rocky had a great short compact right. He was also usually fighting either low talented oafs, small HWs past their prime, or talented LHW/CWs by todays standards. Rocky never faught the likes of a LL or K bro HW - nothing even comparable. A prime (that very short one) Tyson would have good chances vs LL/K bros, but it wouldn't be a wipe out like some believe. The "great" Buster showed us that many years ago :yep

 

Funny Deckers. Nobody said that power diminishes over 190lbs. What I stated is that power around 190lbs is sufficient to knock out most heavyweights, maybe barring a freak like Valuev.

After that any more power is quite unnecessary.

 

Those smaller heavies are also alot faster than these big robots. Lewis was not fast, nor is Waldo or Vitali. They look fast but compare how fast Byrd was to either Klitschko.


I thought that Wladimir was much faster than Byrd from watching their two fights together and watching Sanders dismantle a fast former light heavyweight champ Bobby Czyz also makes me think that the robots are not nearly as slow as some think they are. At any rate, I feel today's heavyweights are extremely underrated while Marciano is extremely overrated.

 

He almost certainly didn't have a harder punch.

 

It's unseemly for someone of your stature to be seen trolling.

 

Anyone who has been in the ring (and i'm just talking sparring) knows that there is a big difference between a 185lb's punch and a 240lb's punch.

The power difference is not even the biggest problem though. The problem is that you have to spend a tremendous amount of energy getting out of the way, it's much harder to get in the right range and you constantly have to keep moving because a counter will take your head off. Against a 185lb'er, this is much less so.

Back in the 50's, people grew a lot smaller naturally and therefore there were very few people around the 220+lb weight, leaving too little talent there to beat their smaller counterparts. When people started growing bigger from the 70's on, the 190lb'ers have rarely been constistently beating big heavyweights. That's not a coincidence. In those days, there was only a 10-20lb gap between lightheavyweight and heavyweight, and that's why lightheavyweights often were competitive with heavyweights. In fact, 2 out of 3 of Marciano's key opponents were light heavyweights.
After the weight gap grew, there have been only a few lightheavyweights with some limited succes. Spinks caught an underconditioned, aging Holmes but in my and most opinions lost the rematch when Holmes was even older but focused. And needless to say how he fared against a great heavyweight in his prime (91 seconds). Can you imagine 2 out of 3 of Lewis' key opponents being Roy Jones and James Toney?

I rate Marciano #4 of all time based on accomplishments, but i find it hard to imagine him fighting a skilled huge ****er like Lennox Lewis.

 

:huh Well, I don't think I was referring directly to you until the end of my reply. But since you've been making many comments regarding under 200lb fighters punches vs the SHWs I can see the confusion. Sure, if a skilled, natural puncher ~190lbs gets in a great punch he can have a LL or Wlad in trouble. Hell if you let me tee off on a HW with an average to weak jaw I maight have them in trouble :yep Then they'd right themselves and knock me into next week :shock: The problems, as many other posters have been pointing out, are many. If the jabs, straight rights, and other punches by the LL/K bro HWs can trouble 220lb, 230lb, and bigger HWs, what will they do to a Rocky or many other of the smaller HWs of yesteryear? The extra power the current HWs have may be unnecessary to you, but it will cause severe problems for the small HW fighting in the ring - even a great one.

That's all I'm trying to say. If we disagree, we disagree. This is hobby to me - I'm not making a living here

 

What you aren't seeing is how a smaller guy can get in and land on a guy trying to close the gap by clinching. Marciano would not stay outside on Waldo. He was old school enough to know that a big man can be worked inside when you have the shorter arms. A guy that small, with a smaller wingspan, can get leverage very quickly.

Force is lost as it is traveling upwards and that is where Marciano would suffer his greatest trouble. But knowing Clinchko, he'd lean right in after a few rounds and taste one of those short right hands. Rocky was the most persistent heavyweight champion ever. He wouldn't quit. Even with a split nose. I could see Waldo scoring a knockdown, maybe 2. But If Waldo couldn't spark him out early then he'd be in some difficulty by the mid rounds.