Do People's Expectations & False Perceptions Of Reality, Affect Their Judgement While Scoring?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by CST80, Jun 16, 2022.


  1. CST80

    CST80 De Omnibus Dubitandum Staff Member

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    Look, this thread in no way is meant to blow smoke up my ass, or up the ass of @IntentionalButt (well, maybe a little:sisi1). While I personally think most of our scorecards far more closely reflect the reality of what's occurring in the ring, many people have certainly had their disagreements. Maybe their disagreements are valid, maybe they aren't. But often times, fans of both fighters can see a match in a completely different light, and seems to hinder their appraisal of what's actually occurring in the ring to a degree. Now sure, close competitive matches can cause a split, and people will end up seeing what they want to see, especially when it's between two elite fighters, with vociferous fanbases. But that's not really what I'm talking about here.

    I've noticed a pattern, myself and a handful of other fans/posters, will have seen a potential unheralded opponent, usually deemed a bum by detractors and an easy win by fans, far more times than the casuals that populate the popular fighter's fanbase. So, while the hardcores are predicting a far tougher fight than most are expecting. When the supposed bum/easy win, starts performing better than expected, I think there's a degree of denial fans go through before it thoroughly clicks that their guy is losing rounds, or maybe the momentary inability to process what's happening accurately. Because usually with most things, especially people with fixed thought patterns, they're slow to make adjustments. That can often negatively affect their judgment, and hamper their ability to process what's happening right before their eyes. Because there's a learning curve they must go through, before they can adjust their expectations and start seeing the reality of what's actually occurring. Well if anything, devout fanboys more often than not, are the definition of inflexible. Usually, and I've seen this on several RBR's, people are slow to adjust, when their fighter starts losing rounds, sometimes right out of the gate. So it takes them three or four to finally give the opponent a round. I'm not entirely sure this expectation game warping of reality, doesn't affect the official judges as well. Like what happened with Canelo vs. Bivol. Did it take them 4 or 5 rounds to have what was actually happening finally click? Perhaps.

    Granted, it's not out of the question, the people who do expect a tougher fight, don't end up falling into a slight pattern of confirmation bias ourselves, and end up being extra generous, in rounds the "opponent" is being extra competitive in, but more often than not, it's the A-side that's always being given the benefit of the doubt as opposed to the B-side.

    Then there's the false perception of reality bias that comes into effect. I covered this in a thread I did over a half a decade ago, called the phenomenon of the terrible opening round. Two good examples being Pascal vs. Yunieski Gonzalez, where YG came out like a steamroller and beat the living hell out of Pascal, who looked on the verge of a stoppage loss in the first round. That was the epitome of a terrible opening round, so much so, it seemed to cloud the minds of many of the viewers for the remainder of the match. Because they were now under the false impression/perception that Gonzalez was having far more success than he actually was. Gonzalez was swinging like a madman, many of the shots were just missing by a hair while Pascal was ducking under them, and counter with looping overhands out of a crouched position. Now don't get me wrong, it was a close fight, 96-94 ether way or 95-95 were all feasible scores. But by no means was it even close to the robbery it was made out to be.

    Same thing happened with the first encounter between Froch and Groves. One couldn't have a worse round than Carl, sans literally getting KTFO. Froch got KTFO, somehow managed to wake up right before he hit the mat, and had already popped back up relatively quickly, and had already recalibrated his iron chin to titanium by the round's end, eating a flush nasty one two. So, that had everyone primed and ready to see The Cobra, knocked spark the **** out. They thought Carl was toast and his goose was cooked. So much so, most didn't realize that the 2nd round, 3rd round and 5th rounds were actually quite competitive and could've gone either way. But, it's hard not to be influenced by Jim Watt's rantings and ravings about the end being nigh. So to many, they were shocked when Froch pulled out the stoppage. Whereas I wasn't, because it was apparent to anyone watching with a clear head, that Froch was starting to inflict more and more damage as the rounds were going by, until the inevitable happened. It's just a pity that the ref waved it as soon as he did. Had he let it continue for another minute or two, the stoppage would've been far more definitive.

    Then there's the feared power punchers that every is expecting to win by KO, and early, so they're on a tinderbox, biting on every feint and missed shot, thinking it's chopping down an opponent. Reading into the ultra negative body language of the opponent, who's scared of taking a flush punch from said dangerous power puncher. All the while, that scared opponent who's being backed up and bossed around the ring, he's landing jabs and counters, while slipping the incoming fire. So you get what we got in back to back matches with Berlanga. Steve Rolls was clearly boxing his ears off, while Berlanga was landing next to nothing. Yet their perception of reality was so off, they couldn't judge it properly. Then the same happened again with the Roamer Alexis Angulo fight, which thank God, more people happened to see clearly. Primarily due to Angulo walking Berlanga down, albeit in a safety first conservative manner. While all Berlanga was doing was throwing jabs and one twos into the forearms of the Colombian. None of which are scoring shots, just like with Canelo vs. Bivol again.

    Then of course, we have matches like Sor Rungvisai vs. Gonzalez 1, Estrada vs. Gonzalez 2, Horn vs. Pacquiao, Cruz vs. Davis, Richards vs. Buatsi, Taylor vs. Catterall, Korobov vs. Charlo, Derevyanchenko vs. GGG, Jacobs and Charlo etc. Where their perceptions of reality are being shattered left and right, and they lose all ability to process what's happening. In some cases, they're giving the A-side far too much credit for perceived successes, in others, not giving the A-side enough credit, because the B-side is overperforming. But also in denial, and refusing to see what's in front of them, and how the rounds are too close to call, and need to be watched under a microscope. Or a little of all of the above. A good example would be GGG vs Derevyanchenko. People were so shocked to see GGG hurt to the body for a second, they started thinking SD had a chance, and started overstating his successes. Meanwhile, they though Sor Rungvisai dropping Chocolatito was a fluke, and wasn't noticing the devastating counter lefts than Sor Rungvisai was pulverizing Roman with for the next 11 rounds. Short circuiting many viewers to the point where they had to go back and rewatch what happened to see it correctly, and even then, many remained in denial.

    Look, I'll admit, I can occasionally fall into the confirmation bias loop, because I expect an opponent I'm well versed in, to do better than everyone else. But that doesn't always mean I'm in the wrong either. Sometimes it takes everyone else a round or two to catch up. Although sometimes, I will edge a round that's action packed and hard to score towards the B-side, usually because I genuinely thought they did enough to edge it. But it could be a subconscious bias coming into play. Although will the rest of you admit to your potential blind spots and foibles? Maybe you will. So, what do you think about these observations of mine? Am I nuts, or onto something? How often do you think stuff like this comes into play and can be factored into people's assessments of controversial fights?
     
  2. Ted Stickles

    Ted Stickles Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I didn’t read the post it was too long only the thread title. I do believe people who like one fighter over another can affect there opinions and decisions when it comes too scoring. They will be too focused on what the one they like more is doing and not paying attention the the opponent and all that he is doing.
     
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  3. exocet76

    exocet76 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Good post. I'm guilty of doing it myself and the Groves v Froch fight was a good example I wanted Groves to win and with the commentary being wack as usual it distorted my opinion. It's only on the rewatch where that emotional investment wasn't there that I saw the fight in a different light. We're all human beings that are prone to perception issues as our brains are less than flawless. The difference is then whether someone has enough self awareness and adapt knowing what's happening versus someone who remains in denial and rigid in their initial assessment.
     
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  4. shadow111

    shadow111 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Is it possible that you have a similar emotional investment as it pertains to Canelo that's causing you to not rate his work and you perhaps are falling into the trap of auto-scoring rounds against him? I really try hard not to fall into the confirmation bias loop. We're all human though and of course it's only human nature to play favorites but you can't really let who you like or dislike affect your ability to score.

    I think it's important to stress though, even if we disagree on rounds, that we really make an effort to understand which rouns could go either way and make that clear when giving your score. Like "I had it 12-0 Bivol but rounds 1-4 & 9 could surely go to Canelo". That's better than just saying it was 12-0 without making it clear that you recognizing how close and hard to score 5 of the rounds were. Even if someone scored Bivol Canelo 12-0, or something, if said person made it clear that a good amount of those rounds could have gone the other away and if you respect someoone who had it closer, then at least we're making progress and making it clear that a good amount of rounds could go either way and that you recognize closer scores as reasonable. I just find it humorous that some people act like scoring Canelo Bivol as all 3 judges did 7-5 is some crazy thing, but yet the same people pretend that rounds like Round 1 could only be scored for Bivol which is actually mad. We need to build bridges between our scoring of matches, rather than act like your score is the only way to score and people who see matches differently are automatically unreasonable. That's not a mature attitude and far too often that sort of thing seems to be the case.
     
  5. CST80

    CST80 De Omnibus Dubitandum Staff Member

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    You literally can't resist making everything about Canelo can you?:lol:
     
  6. Oddone

    Oddone Bermane Stiverne's life coach. Full Member

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    You are basically asking if humans, who are human and therefore make mistakes, know that they allow their personal feelings to interfere with how they score a fight correct?

    In other words are humans self aware?

    To that I would say everyone is influenced by something inside when they score fights and it is different for nearly every single person. I would also add that anyone unwilling to admit they make errors scoring is most likely unable to admit they make errors at all.

    I make mistakes scoring and have blind spots just as all people do.
     
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  7. Ducklerr

    Ducklerr Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    @CST80 What you're talking about in the second paragraph is actually my biggest frustration with COMMENTATORS. In fights where the name fighter is a wide favorite vs a much more unheralded but tough opponent, guys like Tim Bradley typically take 6+ rounds to even entertain the possibility that a close fight might be unfolding. What really annoys me is that it almost suggests a basic assumption that if rounds are not obscenely one sided in favor of the "opponent" or a marquee moment like a knockdown/staggering of the house fighter getting doesn't happen - then there's no point even scoring the round because edge goes to the house...
     
  8. JOKER

    JOKER Froat rike butterfry, sting rike MFER! banned Full Member

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    15-0 Bivol.

    Deal with it.
     
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  9. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    I think there's a degree of expectation bias when scoring rounds absolutely.

    A perfect example is the a side almost always get the feeling out round, because the expectation is they're feeling out their opponent not the other way round.

    And then there's the expectation of big punchers and that they're just setting up their opponent for a ko.

    Lastly there's the underdog phenomenon where someone does so much better than you expected that you start giving them rounds out of pure shock.

    I, personally, have a bias towards aggression. In a close round, I'll always give the edge to the man pressing the action. And shamelessly so. I don't want to follow a sport where Kid Galahad is winning a fight whilst hugging the life out of Warrington.
     
  10. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

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    How many times have they tried to lock me up in an insane asylum for committing the crime of speaking god's truth and being right? There are literally countless examples of them doing so on here alone and in every single instance, lo and behold, when it has come to pass, I have been proven 100% right. How long does someone who has never been wrong have to wait to receive their due credit for being right from people who always get it wrong? :facepalm:
     
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  11. Fogger

    Fogger Father, grandfather and big sports fan. Full Member

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    I am at work so I have not had time to fully read and digest @CST80's boxing version of War and Peace, I will say the biggest factor affecting the scoring of a bout is the announcer's and/or the telecast's point of view. With casuals it is the overriding factor in how they score a fight. With hardcore fans I believe it affects the scoring of truly close rounds quite regularly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2022
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  12. sasto

    sasto Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I maintain it would take a literal psychopath to be a fully objective judge. It's just that over the years the bar moves on what it takes to move us.

    I like that you point out it cuts both ways (for or against who you want to win).

    The thing that really irks me, and it seems to affect the most knowledgeable about the actual practice of boxing, is when rounds are awarded for tactical or strategic wins that don't involve landing punches.

    Charlo vs Derevyanchenko is a good example, where people missed the closeness of the fight because Charlo was supposed to be boxing, controlling range with his jab, etc and he was. But in many rounds he wasn't actually pulling the trigger and SD was.

    But it wasn't that good a fight either so how blameworthy is it not to pay attention?
     
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  13. Mike_b

    Mike_b Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Heck yeah, when a fighter like Canelo is back facing the ropes, GGG has him against the ropes. When James toney has his back against the ropes he is heralded as in putting in work. So it's other a case of judging for or against for the exact same thing.

    You know, Eddie cotton may he r.i.p. said "you gotta help make a hw fight into a exciting fight" he was the ref for Tyson vs Lewis. Some things he did: allowed Lewis to push off Mike onto the ground yet call it a ko, where other refs would call it "a push" so reffing can make/ break a fight but nevermind that's not what the thread is about.

    I agree with in house biases and inaccurate blow by blow, but at the end of the day I prefer commentary than watch a silent fight. I've never watched a fight with the sound off while scoring it. However Vernon Forrest (r.i.p.) may have been nut hugged when he lost to Ike quartey or vice versa, can't remember who was being heralded in that legitimate loss, not a gift decision like HBO was saying.,..

    Also the propensity to make huge fights... Who remember s Oscar vs Felix Sturm? Sturm may have won but that would have ruined Oscar Hopkins for all the accolades, which has nothing to do about judging but actually in the hoya bhop fight Oscar was shoe shining, the commentary crew gave him points for this- ten to fifteen seconds of pitter Pat at the end of the round.
     
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  14. JunlongXiFan

    JunlongXiFan 45-6 in Kirks Chmpionshp Boxing Predictions 2022 Full Member

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    For sure. Read the Bivol vs Canelo RBR, Bivol outlanded him in all 12 rounds, Canelo didn't even land more power in 1 single round. Yet because he had the same mythologization old boxers do, where people thought he punched like a superhuman, multiple people scored multiple rounds for Canelo.
     
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  15. Goran_

    Goran_ Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    I am biased & I have no guilt
     
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