Do We Have A Consensus Number 1 All Time Light Heavyweight?

Shinji Takehara beat Castro in his prime by a clear decision. Takehara was garbage, little better than an amateur. It didnt take an all time great to beat Castro. He was only 30 when he lost to Duran for **** sakes. Youre acting like Castro was this virtuoso. He wasnt. He was slow and one dimensional with a porous defense, made to order for Jones.His record is incredibly padded and his best wins could have gone either way at best, some he didnt deserve.

 

Did this guy just compare Johnson to Qawi?

 

Who did Qawi beat in his career other than Matthew Saad Muhammad? What's his next best win Piet Crous? Past prime Mike Rossman? Qawi was an unique talent but he's most famous for losing to ATGs. Virgil Hill has a far far far better resume at 175(and overall). Reggie Johnson overall resume is at least as good and Qawis.

 

To even count the Duran vs Castro fights as anything more than a cash grab is beyond stupid. Both were fat and barely gave a shyt

 

Maske??? The guy has almost zero marquee wins or names on his resume and had to get a hometown decision against Rocchiggiani to beat him. Maske... Good lord. Im surprised you didnt pull Bubi Scholz out of your ass again. Or do you not rate him at LHW because you consider him one of the best MWs of all time. LOL.

 

Which is still more what Jones does have though.

 

1) Ezzard Charles 2) Archie Moore 3) Michael Spinks 4) Gene Tunney 5) Bob Foster 6) Roy Jones 7) Tommy Loughran 8) John Henry Lewis 9) Harold Johnson 10) Harry Greb

 

I'm really learning some here.

You'd have to have Virgill Hill a tad above Michael Spinks and Bob Foster too yes? Who did Foster ever beat, and Spinks, pffffffft?

 

Id be curious to see the logic behind rankiing Loughran above Greb. Loughran lost their series and doesnt have nearly the resume at that weight. You can even make a strong argument for Greb being above Tunney.

 

Klompton, admittedly I do struggle to rate Greb at 175. He was a better Middle than Light-Heavy and never held the title at the higher weight, yet he beat more 175 lb champions than he did 160 lb ones, despite never really weighing in as anything more than a Super-Middleweight in modern currency. He handed Tunney a thorough beating first time out and gave him hell in some of their subsequent rematches (albeit Gene was very much on top by the time of their last instalment), and as you say, won the series with Loughran.

That said, Loughran was a (very) young pup when he had his tussles with Greb; he didn't lift the title until he was over 100 fights in to his career, and once he'd won it he never lost it in the ring. His defence against Braddock was a win which got better with time, and then there's the likes of Walker (I think that one was legit, but will concede there's room for debate), Stribling, McTigue, Smith, Carpentier, Slattery etc., as well as beating Baer despite spotting him well over a stone (not strictly at Light-Heavy, but still). I don't hold the series loss to Greb again him too much for that reason.

I'd also struggle to see Greb hanging with the likes of Foster and Spinks etc., and feel that his record probably flatters his actual abilities at 175, in terms of how much of a head-to-head monster he'd be at the weight. I tend to think that he just has to be in a top ten because of the names he did manage to beat more than anything else.

 

I think Greb was just as good at LHW as he was at MW. He fought probably at least half of his bouts at LHW and beat more contenders, champions, and HOFers at LHW than any other HOFer you can name. I couldnt care less who holds a title at a weight. That doesnt dictate how good a guy is at that weight. Lots of guys have been denied a title shot that were better than the champion. Dumb Dan Morgan, Battling Levinsky's manager was very open about refusing to fight Greb in a decision match because they knew Levinsky couldnt beat him and thats born out by the result of their series. Carpentier turned down what would have been the second highest payday of his entire career to fight Greb and took about 10% of that amount to fight a lesser opponent. Berlenbach gave Greb a wide berth at Rickard's urging, and Jack Delaney declined two or three offers to fight Greb (prior to moving up to LHW and winning the title there) telling his manager he couldnt beat him which prompted his manager to give up his contract. Battling Siki was offered two big paydays to fight Greb once while champion and once after he lost it. The first time he declined and the second time he either declined or was forced by the NYSAC to take a different fight. Mike Mctigue had a signed contract to fight Greb in 1923 in defence of his title and backed out of it at the last minute.

Greb's weight should be irrelevant because if he was over the MW limit and more importantly under the LHW limit then he was a LHW. In that era it was more common than not for fighters to weigh well under the limit because there were no junior divisions. So you had guys like Bartfield, Gibbons, Smith, ODowd, Downey, etc who often came in weighing around 155 or less for their MW bouts. Spinks often weighed 172, 173 and even 170, do those fights not count since he didnt weigh in at exactly 175? Where do we draw that arbitrary line?

In regards to Tunney they fought five times with Greb winning the first, losing the decision in the second but the vast majority of newspapers present at the fight not only said Greb won but called it one of the worst decisions in the history of the sport, Greb lost the third and won the fourth via newspaper decision. Its often said that Tunney was very much on top by their final bout but how much of that is because of Greb's broken rib? So out of five fights you can easily argue Greb won that series as well.

While Loughran may have been a "young pup" when they fought its disingenuous to pretend he was green. He had years worth of experience fighting some of the best fighters in the world successfully when he faced Greb. The fact is he simply lost his series to Greb and while we are on the subject Greb was an aging, half blind fighter with a ton of ring wear. He wasnt exactly in his prime so the argument cuts both ways.

Loughran may have never lost his title in the ring but how much of that has to do with the fact that three of his five title defenses came against ex welterweights, one came against Braddock who despite your intention to praise him was a **** fighter and put up an abysmal fight against Loughran. Braddocks skills are laughable in that fight. Of the other guys you touted on his resume he lost his series to Stribling, getting knocked down in the process (Stribling ducked out on a fight with Greb at the last minute), won three of four to McTigue who was one of the weakest paper champions of the era (Greb dominated McTigue twice, and as champion McTigue also ducked out of a defense against Greb as mentioned above), Loughran split two fights with an aging Smith (a middleweight so by your own argument that shouldnt count toward Loughran's LHW achievements) and in seven fights with a Smith closer to his prime Greb won 6 and drew once. Carpentier is another who ducked Greb but he fought Loughran three months before he retired. Carpentier had been a pro nearly twenty years and had over 100 bouts under his belt. And really thats a theme with most of the names you mentioned: Greb, Smith, McTigue, Carpentier, all of those guys were on the downside of their career when Loughran beat them. So again, the argument about Loughran fought those fights cuts both ways. Slattery could be a good fighter but if you read about his life in 1927 youd quickly find that he was a drunken sot at the time and didnt train and even then Loughran's decision was by the slimmest margins with some dissenting. Slattery was no first round ballot for the HOF to begin with. I wont even mention Baer because why should we count his victories above the LHW limit if you are reticent to give credit to Greb for victories he had while weighing "only" 168... Loughran weighed over 180 pounds when he fought Baer, thats not a LHW resume fight. And frankly, your inclusion of Baer is, like some of your other arguments a bit hypocritical because you wont hold Tommy's losses to Greb against him when comparing the two (laughable btw) because he was "young and inexperienced" but Baer was about the same age as the Loughran who first lost to Greb and had less experience against world class fighters when he lost to Loughran than Loughran had when he lost to Greb!

Its patently ridiculous to suggest that Foster or Spinks were A. Supermen and so far out of the class of past champions that we cant compare them to the guys that Greb beat and that B. Greb's victories at LHW somehow make him seem better at LHW than he really was. Absolutely ridiculous. I cant even wrap my head around that last argument. Results are what counts he showed that he was as dominant at that weight as any fighter in history. Look at the LHW lineage from 1914 to 1934:

Dillon Greb dominated him two out of two
Levinsky Greb beat him six out of six dominating most fights
Carpentier Ducked Greb
Siki Declined two separate offers to face Greb
McTigue Greb dominated him two out of two, McTigue ducked Greb after becoming champion
Berlenbach Ducked Greb
Delaney Delaney's manager dumped him when Delaney refused to fight Greb saying he couldnt beat him
Loughran Greb won 4 out of 6 and drew another.
Slattery Greb won their only fight
Rosenbloom Greb dominated him so badly, dropping him in the process, that most observers said Greb carried him and could have stopped him. For perspective on that Rosenbloom was only stopped twice, once when he was at the end of his career and another time that was a disputed low blow.

Thats a title lineage of over two decades in which Greb either conclusively defeated or was avoided by the man who would at one time be champion and that lineage is so deep that only two names from above arent in the HOF.

Beyond that Greb dominated and brutalized Gene Tunney and could claim two other wins in 5 fights.
Split a four fight series with Tommy Gibbons in which he dominated their final, longest fight and the only fight to a decision.
Split two fights with Kid Norfolk
Beat Billy Miske twice and drew with him a third time

That doesnt include all of the HWs he beat while weighing under the LHW limit unlike Loughran.

You dont get a better LHW resume than that and the simple fact that Greb won a MW title doesnt mean that suddenly all of his accomplishments at LHW get disqualified. How that doesnt illustrate him as being a head to head monster is beyond me. Particularly in light of the fact that he not only showed such consistency and dominance in that division but unlike Foster showed that he could actually compete with bigger, harder punching men, and unlike Spinks showed that he could do it on a consistent basis.

Bob Foster has one victory over a HOFer on his record: Dick Tiger.
Spinks had three: Qawi and two over Holmes (both above the LHW limit).

You could combine their list of best wins and they still look anemic compared to Greb's