Do you believe that the swarmer/boxer/puncher triad would stand up to statistical scrutiny?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Mar 1, 2022.


  1. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    The usual adage goes that boxers (usually) beat punchers, punchers (usually) beat swarmers, and swarmers (usually) beat boxers.

    Two questions:

    1) Do you believe that these categories could be made precise enough that a sociologist or other academic could test the rock-paper-scissors theory in a statistical study of actual fight outcomes?

    2) If your answer to the first question is "yes," do you think that statistical studies of boxer/puncher/swarmer fight outcomes would confirm the theory that boxers beat punchers, punchers beat swarmers, and swarmers beat boxers on average?
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2022
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  2. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Yes, I do.

    You would have to work with non elite fighters, to get the numbers of course.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2022
  3. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    To kick things off, I'd answer the second question "yes."

    I trust boxing coaches, by and large. If generalizations like the boxer/puncher/swarmer emerged to the point where they're widely accepted, it's probably because they have a strong grain of truth. This doesn't mean that every fight between a boxer and a swarmer (for example) will end with the boxer winning. But it does mean that I think the generalization will hold, on average, with a large enough sample of equally matched fighters.

    The first question is harder, but might be solved simply by asking a few dozen boxing coaches whether certain fighters are clear examples of each, and then tracking their careers. I'm less confident about that one, though.
     
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  4. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Delusional BUT Determined Full Member

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    I think usually boxers blur the lines so much it's unclear which of the "triad" they belong to.
     
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  5. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    Have you ever seen/heard any boxing coaches vouch for this generalization though?
     
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  6. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Off the top of my head, I recall it appearing in Christy Halbert's book on boxing. She coached the first US women's team in the world championships. On pages 170-173, she discusses 2/3 of the triad by name (Slugger/Boxer), and in her advice on how to deal with a Boxer, advocates a continuously punching, high pressure style. Halbert's book has endorsements from a university boxing coach and Evander Holyfield, FWIW.

    I think it appears in Frazier's book as well.

    I assume from your question that you haven't encountered it in the wild?
     
  7. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    Right.
     
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  8. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    You must have reversed who would usually win re: boxers & swarmers above.
     
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  9. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Correct, yes. That was a goof/typo.
     
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  10. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Should I be a pedantic ******* & insist that since you did not hit the wrong keys but instead accidentally expressed things in the wrong order, there is no way it could have been a typo? ;-)

    No, unless for fun-you have become part of the very Lifeblood of this place with your highly creative, intellectually rigorous & sometimes deadpan absurdist threads.

    You really are a great asset to this place man. :sun_smiley:
     
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  11. White Bomber

    White Bomber Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Edit your post ;):p
     
  12. greynotsoold

    greynotsoold Boxing Addict

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    Nobody talks like that in real gyms. None of that terminology is used. I have been wasting my life in gyms since 1974 and I have never heard anybody referred to as a 'slugger' a "swarmer' an "outfighter". NEVER.
    See, when you guys talk like that, that is why boxing guys say that you DKSAB, or whatever it is. If you walked into a gym, a real gym, talking like that, somebody would give you a cup of water and find you a place to sit. I know that you "hardcore" fans mock 'casuals'....but how do you think we look at you? Those of us that spend every minute in the gym, or on the phone finding a welterweight to fight 4 in Sacramento next month?
    That girl is not "in" boxing. She is writing a book for lames and lops that want to think that they know.
    Spend years in the gym sparring. Spend a bunch more teaching. Spend more booking fighters. Nobody ever uses the 'slugger/swarwmer/outfighter' terms. That is internet forum trash and you might as well get "DINGBAT" tattooed above your "Casual But Ignorant" tattoo.
     
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  13. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    I wouldn't consider myself a hardcore fan.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2022
  14. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King

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    I have heard many trainers, fighters, and announcers use terms like "volume puncher" to refer to guys like Pacquiao or Shawn Porter on air which can be interchangeable with terms like "pressure fighter" which I've also heard people say.

    Duran is described as being a good inside fighter and this has been used dozens of times on air.

    People described Ali as "fighting on the outside" or describing him as a "mover".

    Slugger has been used many times to refer to heavy hitters. Even "casuals" use the term.

    Cus D Amato called Frazier and Marciano "swarmers".

    It's all the same crap, different diaper. The exact wording may different, but I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that boxers/trainers/etc have no concept of different labels for different boxer styles.
     
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  15. Flash24

    Flash24 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    This post is on point!!!
    As many gyms as I have been in all over the beautiful
    State of Florida, and some of those gyms are legendary
    like 5th Street in Miami I've never heard ANY trainer pigeon
    hole a fighters style, now I've heard them say something
    like "Fighter x likes to use the jab and move, or fighter b
    is very aggressive and a great puncher, but don't think
    I've ever a reputable trainer put a fighters style in a box.
    Now what they DID do back in the days is train to the fighters
    ability. Tried to see what the individual did best and worked on
    that. Unlike today where everyone seems to train fighters to fight like
    Mayweather Jr.
    I agree, who ever wrote that book knows as much about boxing
    as I know about flying the Space Shuttle.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2022
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