Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?

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Yes, I remember you said it would have been a draw after 10 rounds and that is absolute cr*p!
I was watching the Johnson v Jeffries film before you were hatched! Johnson went into the fight with a lip split by sparring partner Marty Cutler it re-opened during the fight Jeffries drew f*ck all, he got a terrible beating . Jack Jeffries his brother wanted Jim Corbett to stop the fight in the 7th round, and they debated having Jeffries foul out to save the beating they knew he was getting. Joe Choynski said he mentally quit! Bob Fitzsimmons said Johnson could have ended the fight any time he wanted.John L Sullivan said Jeffries was outclassed that's the five biggest Jeffries boosters agreeing how one sided it was!Tex Rickard the promoter and referee of the fight said after the fight Johnson was the best fighter he had ever seen.

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85066387/1910-07-07/ed-1/seq-12/ In this report WJ Slattery says Jeffries quit cold, was a disgrace and fought like a frightened mouse!

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030214/1910-07-05/ed-1/seq-1/
"Jack Johnson is the most wonderful fighter that ever pulled on a glove.He won as he pleased from Jeffries and was never in any danger.
Jeffries could not hit him and Johnson could hit him whenever he pleased".
Tex Rickard. The Paducah Star gave Jeffries 2 rounds.The Ardmore Sun 1 round.Johnson himself said he only felt one punch of Jeffries, a left to the body in the 4th rd which was the only round he thought Jeffries did well in. The fight was rout! In the 7th round Jim Corbett turned to Jeffries brother and said," he is licked what shall we do?" Open your bigoted eyes and read the reports ,and watch the film objectively I remember you saying Jeffries dominated Johnson in the clinches! You are a bloody joke man!

 

and I have no problems if Pollack is wrong. I enjoyed the discussion. Nice for old geezers like me to get the mental gears oiled and working now and then.

Curiously, no one brought up the main criticism of Jeff when he was active--that he was a one-handed fighter who relied mainly on his left. I did notice though in the Sharkey fight that he was hardly using his left at all as far as I could see. He supposedly had hurt it. Winning a fight with one hand, and not even your best hand, shows real fortitude.

That said, I think the skill level (shown by film) clearly rises over the years. Dempsey's era was better overall than Jeff's. Louis' and Marciano's than Dempsey's. The seventies to the fifties, etc.

 

Not exactly., Jeff got hog fat in retirement. Corbett didn't. And Corbett did have some fights and perhaps exhibitions over those six years.

What we know is that Corbett trained for six months and managed to get himself into better shape than he had been in for years and folks who saw him that summer against either Jeff or McCoy or sparring with Ruhlin thought him in good form.

Jeff, in contrast, seems to have totally lost it. The difference might be in what Jeff is being criticized for. Corbett relied on skill. Jeff on his physical superiority.

 

I enjoyed the discussion. While agreeing to disagree about Jeff's historical rating, I agree with you that the rhino is overrated.

 

Jeffries was down to weight a year before he fought Johnson and began training before that. He elected to earn a fortune on the stage, being publicized as the returning champion ,it was his choice. You've read Pollack's book you know the circumstances. Corbett was in good shape for the first Jeffries fight, he had no business being in there for the second one.

 

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Jeffries was a phenom for his time, but what exactly do we mean by that?

He was not the only big heavyweight around by any means.

You have other guys in the same size range such as Sandy Ferguson, who were unquestionably world class fighters by the standards of the day, but go mixed results against the smaller heavyweights.

So what separates Jeffries from the other big heavyweights of the day?

Reading contemporary accounts, you hear as many remarks about his speed, as you do about his size and durability.

In addition to being a big man by the standards of the era, he seems to have been very fast, and to have had exceptional reflexes.

He was a bit raw when he won the title, but he improved his technical game considerably while he was champion.

The reasons that he struggled in a lot of his early title defences, were probably his lack of ring experience, and his use of a reactive counterpunching style.

 

What separates Jeffries is the fact he was the only real quality heavyweight of 220lbs. At 220lbs Jeffries was all muscle, at that weight Ferguson , a confirmed p*ss head,was seriously out of shape.
Jeffries was never hard to hit, let's not pretend he became a defensive wizard as he matured, you don't get your nose busted 3 times, develop a cauliflower ear and ridges of scar tissue on you face if you are defensively adept.
Does Jeffries look fast stalking Ruhlin?

In his rematch with Fitz ,the Cornishman is described as hitting him at will,"when and where he wanted." and Fitz was nearly 40 years old!
Jeffries had 2 more defences , against a thoroughly washed up Corbett which proved Jack Sh*t, and a farcical defence against the lumbering novice Munro, hardly credible yardsticks to say that he had improved scientifically!
In his abortive comeback against Johnson did Jeffries exhibit any signs of defensive ability? Even in the early rounds when he was fresh, he was the same old Jeff ,stolidly marching forward, stoically taking punches.

 

Thing is you are selling both Corbett and Fitz way short. Both were worlds hwt champions, both ATG fighters.

Fitz was one of few hwt champions that could knock out an opponent with a single blow. He was a bone crunching puncher. Corbett was the classic dancing boxer and within a large ring he would make a ****** out of many punchers such as Jeffries. In a large ring it would be exceedingly difficult to catch Corbett as well as Tunney or Ali.

Jeffries was an ATG for many decades it is very wrong to try to reach back in time and try to take that away from him. Johnson a man who few discredit spoke very highly of Jeffries abilities. This should be noted.

Regarding Johnson Jeffries you do NOT see the same fighter as you see watching him in his prime vs Sharkey and Ruhlin. Willard stated that Jeffries was a "sick man" the day he fought Johnson.

 

I've asked you several times ,now Ill ask you again, what is Corbett's best win? Which signature victory makes him an ATG?
I'm aware he was a champion ,I'm also aware he beat a 34 years old alcoholic who had not fought in nearly 5 years to become one and that it took him 21 rounds to do so!
Funny because all Jeffries camp and Jeffries himself said he was in great shape for the Johnson fight and they said this the next day.

Willard was a big clod with the intelligence of one of my dogs after the Dempsey fight he told everyone a railroad spike was responsibe for his defeat ,do you believe that? Because if you don't ,why would you believe his opinion of Jeffries condition over Jeffries own estimate of his fitness and also the opinions of Choynski,Berger,Corbett,Burns, and Langford who were in his camp?
I actually don't think you know much about this period and the fact that you repeat these anecdotes which have never had any substance to them confirms it for me.

Jeffries was great for his time,that's all he gets from me. Anyone saying I'm ."very wrong," to deny him ATG status will have to come up with a 100% better argument than you have so far produced!