Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?

Well, they weren't the top contenders. No doubt Jeff didn't fight all the top ten guys, but then how many champions do? Johnson is the one who actually established himself as a top championship contender and Jeff didn't fight him in 1904 and 1905. That is against him on the scales. But just dragging in names of alternative fighters he might have fought, who weren't rated as highly as Fitz, Corbett, Sharkey, or Ruhlin, makes no sense.

As for Finnegan, it was a tune-up between Sharkey and Corbett, and for me making a big deal out of it is on par with making a big deal of the supposed Joe Louis defense against Johnny Davis in 1944.

It is much fairer to point out that Munroe was not in the same class as Johnson or Hart in 1904.

 

"Jeffries and Dempsey were bound by the American tradition of barring blacks"

Yes, but didn't they and earlier Sullivan create that tradition?

That said, national politics did weigh in, I believe. In Jeffries case a worry that there might be a Federal ban of boxing. In Dempsey's that the rioting which followed the Johnson-Jeffries bout would be repeated.

 

I am concede that Jeffries was an All Time Great White heavyweight but I view the title as being split in his time.

 

Except the mixed matches in the Jeff era from 1896 to 1905 did not favor the black fighters. Nor were any of them between Jackson and Johnson considered the outstanding contender. Jeff himself beat Jackson, Armstrong, and Griffin. Choynski beat Childs and Johnson. Johnson later lost also to Hart. From 1906 to 1926 (when Sharkey defeated Wills and Godfrey) the white fighters were either beaten by the top black fighters or avoided them, with the Willard win in a finish fight with Johnson being the exception. I think it very justified to consider two championships going on through this era, with Johnson a colored champion who abandoned that title and didn't defend it after he won the white championship, for the most part maintaining the color line himself.

I think the 1926 to 1935 era is similar to the Jeff era.

Joe Louis cements a unified title in 1937 and 1938.

 

I don't.

 

Didn't Jackson essentially quit the sport because he saw futility of pursuing the title?

A severely depleted version of Jackson that bore little resemblance to the pre-alchy veresion.

The Hart bout was a fait accompli if Johnson did not KO Marvin.

A lot of it depends on where you chart Johnson's ascension. There were many calls for him to have an opportunity at the title during Jeffries final year as champ, despite the Hart verdict, which many saw as suspicious.

And again, we have to look at the broader picture of opportunity. Would you doubt that black fighters more often had to fight with the cuffs on, if not throw a bout entirely, or had to carry opponents, or were put in the position more often of fighting on short notice with less than optimal conditions and/or impediments to their success? And all this, not out of particular or direct malice but to appease the base sentiments of a largely white paying audience.

 

"a severely depleted version of Jackson"

True. But what does this have to do with Jeffries being a legit champion? He proved he was better than Jackson at this point.

"The Hart bout was a fait accompli if Johnson did not KO Marvin."

Then why do the ringside reporters consistently score Johnson for not carrying the fight to Hart? Johnson apparently thought he could win a decision as he was fighting cautiously. Why didn't Johnson go all out for a KO?

"despite the Hart decision, which many saw as suspicious."

Only the folks at the fight would have a worthwhile opinion, and the newspaper reports were mixed.

"wearing the cuffs" "carrying opponents"

But this just takes us into areas we don't know about. Which one of Jeff's black opponents wore the cuffs? Did Choynski's opponents? Unless we have some pertinent details, this is just denying results w/o any direct evidence.

 

It's Greggains,George Siler the top referee of the day called it," a most curious decision".

 

Blatantly false. There weren't "bound" by anything, these CHOSE to be bound by it. A great number of people didn't think a mixed couple should be together, that didn't stop it from happening or being " bound" by anything. Plenty of people thought very ill things about people of color, but quite a few didn't, and weren't "bound" by what a lot or majority thought. You can keep trying to paint it like nobody knew any better, but that is blatantly false; and what's worse, you keep trying to give people a pass for it. They don't get a pass for going along with ideas and concepts they probably KNEW not to be true for the sake of their image and reputation. You can keep trying Perry, but I'll keep on exposing the BS.

 

Hart didn't beat Johnson. There are no two ways about that. Johnson easily toyed with, and beat Hart like a drum when he chose to. Hart looked like he had been in a fight after Johnson, he was swollen and bloodied, Johnson looked like he went for a stroll in the park. Just because some ref comes in to try and stack the cards in Hart's favor (knowing how Hart fights, it was no coincidence what the ref chose as the main criteria), doesn't mean he really won. We should know better than that.

 

Just about anybody was better than Jackson at that point .

 

Back from my 4th of July break...

Jeffries best fights were not against light heavyweights, that limit is 175 pounds Richdanafuff. So let's correct that mistake and say, Cruiserweights to heavyweights. Men the same size as Johnson, Marciano, Dempsey and Joe Louis were at many stages of their careers. Fair enough?

I've asked if you hold Johnson's, Dempsey's and Louis' multiple KO losses vs sub 200-pound men against them?

No reply! Well, do you?

In Jeffries case, he never lost to them or anyone until his lame comeback attempt, age 35, out of the ring for 6 years, and out of shape with no warm up fights.

If your a size king for heavyweights you probably should think Jeffries more than an old timer pre-Sonny list could compete with a modern sized guy Joshua's size.

So outside of Fitzsimmons, who proved he could beat heavier class men, ( and also killed three men from boxing-related injuries, and quickly Kod an opponent who was an estimated 260 pounds ) Jeffries best opponents were from 183 to say 200 pounds. Keep in mind fighters trained down in weight back then, and heavyweights were not fat for the most part they way they can be in a more modern sense. If the distance was shorter, I think the training would be different and the fighters would be a little heavier.


Regarding Sharkey, he had a great chin in his prime, which due to his argressive style took its toll. Jeffries with few listed fights defeated Sharkey in the first meeting, did the same in the re-match with an injured left had that happened in round two. If not for the injury, in all likely hood he stops Sharkey in the second match.

However I think Jeffries win over Corbett in the first fight, and Fitzsimmons in either fight was a better pure win, though you could argue he defeated Sharkey at his very best while injured, and ruined him to the point where he was never the same afterwords so that win should rate as high.

 

BS. Johnson's pulled an Ocsar De La Hoya for the entire second half of the fight, doing little. Fighters usually do this because they don't want to get knocked out. Johnson's own corner begged him to pick up the pace...he did not. Hart's punching, aggression and heart won the day.

Read Adam Pollack's book, as he goes into primary accounts and detail as to why Hart won. Don't buy Johnson' and his fans excuses. Johnson had the world to prove here this fight was billed as an elimination match with Jeffries.

He laid an egg and lost. End of.

 

You prove ****, you welch on bets. You are a coward and liar. We both know this. For once you got a fighters age right Props to you! Outside of regurgitating what anyone can in books, your value here is minimal.

Everett was out classed and floored multiple times. As I pointed out his record was good and he was never stopped prior to meeting Jeffries. End of.

 

Have you read Pollack's The Rise? I recognize all the quotes above having just read it. Yet, I came away pretty convinced, by the overwhelming quotes to the counter, that Johnson outperformed Hart but was railroaded, that the fight was set up for Hart to win if only he could survive 20 rounds. There was no financial incentive for Johnson to win, as Jeffries had repeatedly affirmed the color line. For Hart at least, he could potentially become a challenger due only to the color of his skin.