Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mr.DagoWop, Jun 20, 2017.


Jeffries atg?

  1. Yes

    38 vote(s)
    71.7%
  2. No

    15 vote(s)
    28.3%
  1. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    That was just a typo, you are using it as a blatant excuse and fooling nobody while doing so.

    Brady was Jeffries manager at the time he made the statement whom do you think his loyalty was towards? Brady repeated that opinion in his autobiography.

    Show ONE reporter describing Greb as amateurish. Corbett is not the only man who claims he dropped /ko'd Jeffries there are others who corroborate his story you need to do some research.
    I don't say Corbett did kd/ko Jeffries I say there are two separate incidents in Pollack's book in which it is claimed he did.

    When will you be providing us with proof of Goddard being hospitalized after the Jeffries fight and Everett being being bed -ridden for several weeks?

    Can we expect some evidence tonight ,tomorrow?
    You have been challenged by me to back up your statements,now are you going to do so,or as usual ignore it?
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2017
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  2. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You are using the punch stats, which are from the SF Call, and from a writer who almost certainly didn't see the fight, but credits an "expert" writing for the New York Herald.

    But any serious historian must ask who's this expert? Was he unbiased? Could these stats have come from someone close to Corbett? Now I don't in fact know who compiled those stats, but without more info it is indeed possible they came from Corbett's camp in an effort to burnish his performance. But you're asking me to take them as gospel, as they say. I wouldn't accept these stats as an unblemished source w/o more pertinent info about where they came from, and I am always very skeptical of any anonymous source.

    So my bottom line answer is why don't you give me the name of the man who compiled those punch stats if you want me to take them seriously.

    By the way, here is a quote by Pollack from the Herald--Corbett "is a master of masters in cleverness and defensive work, but he cannot deliver a knockout blow. But Corbett should have assured himself at least a draw."

    "a draw" as at least a possible outcome. Doesn't strike me as all that one-sided.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2017
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  3. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    I quoted historian Tracy Callis. He's an expert and highly regarded. That is my source. Yours is NO RESEARCH. I like this thread, it embarrasses ( which is rather easy ) you and shows bias.
     
  4. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Brady was Jeffries manager at the time he made the statement whom do you think his loyalty was towards?
    Brady confirmed this account in his autobiography years later
    Show ONE reporter describing Greb as amateurish. Corbett is not the only man who claims he dropped /kod Jeffries you need to do some research. I don't say Corbett did kd/ko Jeffries I say there are two separate incidents in Pollack's book in which it is claimed he did. Just to demonstrate how ignorant you are on the subject read this and educate your stupid self!

    Feb 27th 1897. "Punched And Floored Two Men Almost Out".
    " Dazes and Floors Jeffries with a Right Up Swing!"
    That is the headline of the San Francisco Examiner written by one of the most famous and respected of boxing journalists ,W.W. Naughton
    Here is the account of that sparring session to which Naughton was a witness.
    " Jeffries was warned that the bout was to be in the nature of a try out and braced himself for heavy weather.Jeffries ,who has the true fighting spirit in him,cut out the pace.He knew it was Corbett's intention to lay on him hard,and he sensibly concluded thathe might as well do a bit of thumping,while being thumped.
    Corbett kept drawing back so as to allow Jeffries big fists to skim past his nose,but never failed to return with counters, that covered the novice's face with inflamed patches and caused his nose and lips to trickle with blood.
    In the clinches and
    there were several of them,Jeffries was all at sea,the champion gripping his opponents shoulders and neck and forcing his head back until Jeffries was compelled to loosen his hold and totter away."
    He drove Jeffries back with a straight lefthander and went past him into the open space.Jeffries was bewildered,he pressed Corbett, hard and Jim fell back.Suddenly Corbett made a stand and waited for one of Jeffries left swings.Jim bent his head so as to avoid contact and sent his right in with a jerky upswing.He reached Jeffries jaw and the big fellow flopped on his knees, his face resting on Corbett's stomach.Corbett placed the palms of his hand to the side of Jeffries head and steadied him for a few seconds..When the fog cleared from Jeffries brain Corbett assisted himto his feet and the bout was over". Page 34 "Jim Jeffries". Adam Pollack.

    Referee Charley White who was a witness , said this." He dropped Jeffries this morning with the shortest of short arm punches".

    Trainer Billy Delaney said." The blow that dropped Jeffries was a right jolt and as usual it was delivered from short range." Jim Corbett." The punch I caught Jeffries with was a right hook at close quarters".
    The following statement is attributed to Jeffries in Pollack's book."An awful hitter isn't he ,now I knew about his cleverness before I came up here but they told me he hadn't a punch that would hurt.I know differently now,I was never slugged like that in my life.I know that I can take a hard smash and I had an idea that it was next to impossible to put me out.Well I was not completely out but I was too close to it and there was no fun in it.
    He hit me from such a short range too.I was right on top of him when he let go and the jar was the funniest thing I ever felt.My knees struck the floor and I had pins and needles all over me.I suppose I am in for some thumpings before this thing is through,but I hope to learn from Corbett and that will compensate me for the hammerings I get"
    San Francisco Examiner& New York Journal,Feb28th18967.


    "Jim allowed the big fellow to corner him and then seing a good opening after one of Jeffries wiold swings,he threw himself forward and shot out his right arm from a half bent position, catching Jeffries squarely on the jaw.The big fellow went flat on the floor and was assisted to his dressing room by Delaney and White.Jim was rather surprised himself and quickly came to his partners assistance.Jeffries took it good naturedly saying ,"he certainly got a good one that time".The Rocky Mountain News.

    They went at each other in terrific fashion.Jeffries on the aggressive,the Los Angeles fighter was very active

    and tried in every possible way to land effectively on Jim's anatomy , but all to no purpose.Corbett either met his with a straight left or a left swing on the jaw or body,,gettinaway each time withouta counter.Finally Jeffries let his right goat full speed.Jimthrew his head back ut of range andimmediately came back landing a swinging left and right onJeffries jaw.The blow knocked the Los Angeles man groggy , but Corbett gave him time to recover.
    When Jeffries was himself again and they had been sparring briskly for about two minutes ,Corbett suddenly stepped in close and a la Fitzsimmons and landing a stiff right hand jolt on the jaw knocked Jeffries down and out..White and Delaney rushed to his assistance and applied restoratives.Five minutes later the Los Angeles heavyweight was again in shape".|The SanFrancisco Examiner Feb28th 1897.
    Two weeks later, commenting on Corbett's improved power Naughton said I saw him send big Van BUskirk down with a half speed right at the Olympic Club a few months ago,and I saw him drop Jeffries with a right jolt not many days since."San Francisco Examiner March15th 1897.

    "Corbett has worked up a short arm jolt which is all the terrible strength of those mighty arms and shoulders, combined with the full momentum of his 178lbs of bone and muscle. It is this blow that unexpectedly knocked out Jeffries, the 210 pound youth who acts as an animated gymnasium for Corbett."
    Joseph Pulitzer,The New World. March 16th 1897.
    Now it should obviously be taken into account that Jeffries was a 21 years old novice and Corbett was a 30 years old reigning Champion ,and I don't take anything from Jeffries, he is described as being as brave and game as they come in the face of the onslaughts.I've only mentioned them to illustrate how ignorant you are on this subject with your stupid statements about only Corbett claimed that he floored Jeffries.We have a top referee three top boxing writers and a top trainer confirming it! Next time think before you mug yourself.


    Will you be providing us with proof of Goddard being hospitalized after the Jeffries fight and Everett being being bed -ridden for several weeks?

    Can we expect some evidence tonight ,tomorrow?
    You have been challenged by me to back up your statements are you going to do so,or as usual ignore it?
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  5. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Show us the quote,personally if you are referring to this its absolute bullsh*t!

    "He cracked two of Bob Fitzsimmons' ribs in one of their bouts. He battered Tom Sharkey, breaking his nose and two ribs. Diamond (1954 p 62) said Sharkey was hospitalized for three days and suffered three broken ribs. He bashed in Jim Corbett's right side in their second match. He sent Joe Goddard to the hospital with a severe beating and dealt Pete Everett head and back injuries that kept him bed-ridden for days. Yet, Jeffries, himself, said he never hit a man with all his strength for fear of killing him."
    He cracked NONE of Fitzsimmons ribs,He did NOT break Sharkey's nose or break any of his ribs, he fractured ONE of them which was confirmed by a doctor the next day I'll even tell you which one, the left sixth rib !

    . Goddard fought within a couple,of months of the Jeffries fight and so did Everett.

    Callis is a lazy writer who does little or no research.He just repeats stories from other writers who like himself have never seen Jeffries .

    I have the round by rounds summaries of both the fights and the Goddard one is suspected of being pre-arranged something neither you or Callis know jack sh*t about! But something I can prove!



    I don't think much of Callis at all.
    This is what he said about the first Corbett Jeffries fight
    do you agree with it or are you just going to cherry pick from his opinions?

    "But, he did err and get too close to Jim Jeffries – more out of disregard than error. Corbett boxed 23 rounds with Jeffries in their first bout and cut the big man’s face to shreds. Corbett later joked that he was ahead 22-0 going into the fatal 23rd round"
    Well?
    I'm glad you like the thread because I've just posted 5 sources to back up my claims whilst still waiting for yours! As usual no primary sources , no contemporary reports, in fact no proof whatsoever, just your usual bullsh*t!
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
  6. Radrook

    Radrook Well-Known Member Full Member

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    How long were each of those rounds?
     
  7. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    3 minutes.
     
  8. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You haven't read it have you! I have!
     
  9. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Still waiting for proof of your claims, that's 3 days now! Tracy Callis just quoted others without any verification which is his usual lazy M.O.
    Do you actually understand what a primary source is? I ask because you have never produced one!
    I have the contemporary reports of all those fights, no mention of any of the injuries you described in any of them ,in other words they are just your usual bullsh*t fairy tales! Epic fail, and cut and run on your part
    Rain Man!
     
  10. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Your BS. How do you know? Tracy Callis is a serious research historian and an authority on Jeffries you buffoon! He has reviewed no less than three books on Jeffries, I'll take his research over yours any day! No mention only means you can't find them. DUH.

    You have yet to produce one source that Corbett every put Jeffries down beside Corbett himself. Who else saw it? You might want to learn that Corbett said " You can't hurt him, not even with an ax. " when talking about Jeffries.

    And yes, reporters did call Harry Greb Amateurish. If you read, you'd learn. Even Klompton says so, and he's an authority on Greb. I'd wager you your existence on this board, but we both know you do not honor bets!

    Outside of comedy, and re-posting the passages of books you like while ignoring others that do not suit your agenda you add nothing!

    I was busy for a while, but I see Dago did not reply when I showed him many boxing people who lived in different times called Jeffries an all time great, ahead of people who are on his list of all-time greats, therefore, he needs to reevaluate his positon. We shall see if he can admit he's wrong or not.
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Callis is no authority on Jeffries he just quoted other people who like him have never seen him,he doesn't even know Jeffries correct height! I have given you primary sourced quotes from eyewitnesses
    Billy Delaney, Top Trainer W W Naughton Top Boxing Writer ,Charley White.Top Referee!
    I've given the date they were made and in which paper they were printed in !
    You've produced your usual JACK SH*T!


    Can you not even read typed quotes you ignorant cretin?

    I'll take Pollack's research over anybody's.
    Callis doesnt do any! He just regurgitated opinions from modern writers you f*cking buffoon!

    Now I'll post the round by round reports of the Goddard and Everett fights as soon as you post proof that Jeffries hospitalized Goddard and made Everett bed ridden . How's that for a challenge?
    Getting back to the Sharkey & Fitz fights still no proof from you and don't expect to find any from Mr Callis because he hasn't got any? I've already crossed swords with that gentleman!
    Now also post a contemporary quote from a boxing writer in which he calls Harry Greb amateurish 4th time of asking!
    Step up to the plate, or step down you phoney!
     
  12. Mr.DagoWop

    Mr.DagoWop Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    He described Harry Greb in what his style looked like. Not his skill level.

    I did respond btw. You haven't responded to my second response.
     
  13. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    I thought I'd have better luck with you via the PM's, but since you bumped the thread here, we can continue.

    Over 50 historians see Jeffries as all time great. There are none who said Jeffries was not an ATG while he was living. You are the only one disagrees here, and as I pointed out dozens of historians, writers or boxing people have Jeffries higher than many of your all time greats. So either the whole group of them, who is more familiar boxing are wrong, or you are right.

    Those are not good odds for you.

    At this point, your going to need to move the goal posts back beyond the point of view to make your point as whatever you typed was not at the start of the thread.

    Ignore the poster McVey, Mr. Tracy Callis is an authority on Jeffries, among the best on the topic! The poster McVey is hateful and willfully ignorant.
     
  14. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Since it's unlikely, you will take a bet, and if you do we both know you will welch, at this point in time its time to shut your pie hole!

    Afterward, I expect you're right and I'm not ( if you have any class or integrity ), or simply stare back at the man you see in the minor and remain angry.

    From Klompton:

    Essentially Greb was a guy who caught the boxing bug. He didnt have to box. He came from a lower middle class family and probably would have made a decent wage outside of the sport. But he caught the bug, like many of us who spend hours online talking about what only a guy like Greb could do, and he was hooked. He was told numerous times early on that he wouldnt make it. He was awkward and amateurish and had a funny looking style. He was knocked out in his first year as a pro. BUT, he stuck to it. He didnt give up and that same drive and competitiveness that kept him at the sport also allowed him learn, grow, and adapt. Over the course of a few years the guy developed into a fighter that could handle any style an opponent brought at him regardless of their size. And he just kept going. He kept on learning, and getting better and by the time he leveled out he was one of the greatest fighters the sport had known (and was already acknowledged by some as just that in his own lifetime) and was making a good living at it. He wanted the riches but admirably his legacy was more important to him. This guy was a true fans fighter because he actively sought out the best in order to prove himself, rarely quibbling over money in the process. He didnt just want to make a quick buck and cash out. He wanted to be remembered and thats why we still talk about his record today, he accomplished that much.

    This content is protected


    If you bother to read the news clipping of the time, others will say this too.

    Now for once, shock me and show me you can learn....
     
  15. Mr.DagoWop

    Mr.DagoWop Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Why do I have to follow the opinions of the masses? Why can't I form my own opinion you ****ing fascist?

    It is my OPINION that Jeffries wouldn't beat Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield, or Tyson in the 90s and that he wouldn't beat Ali, Frazier, Quarry, Foreman, or Norton in the 70s. Perhaps even more! To be an all time great in my book I have to think that you will be great in every era.

    This is completely subjective hence the thread title "Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?". If it was objective then the question wouldn't even be logical.
     
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