Do you consider Mike Tyson as a high IQ fighter?

He understood and knew how to make the most out of his unique style in the ring and I thought he did that exceptionally well.

It wore off a lot after he left Rooney though.

 

I think so, just not overly adaptable because of a flawed system - he should’ve fought more like Marciano but for a young man his style was perfect.

 

Tyson had a really programmed style, and it wholly suited his physical abilities. There was never really a plan B tho, but at his extreme best that style would have taken some breaking down.

I don't consider him a high IQ fighter because he lacked dimensions to his game. I thought when he was with Rooney he was given brilliant corner advice within that structured style of his.

 

Mike had trouble adapting his style to fit another's, one of the key elements in establishing a high ring IQ.

 

I agree, his style didn’t really demand a high boxing IQ.

His emotional intelligence was probably more his weakness.

If a fight didn’t go exactly and ideally as Mike might’ve liked, I think signs of frustration were detectable with Mike falling off his tried and tested routine a bit.

Mike nearly had Bruno out very early like so many other opponents previously but Bruno’s less than legal tactics upset Mike’s psyche and, by association, his normal executions were disrupted.

However, Mike eventually collected himself and still finished Frank off in short order.

 

Hmm,his style did require crazy athleticism to pull off which he had,but I believe he really took the Cus system to the next level, although like what John said he had no plan b,I think a fitting plan b might be him transforming into Jose Torres or Èder Jofre.

 

Its a weird one, given his physical limitations, you couldn't really expect him to to have a plan B and switch his style up. His only way of fighting was generally very effective..

There were a few fights when he knew he couldn't KO his opponent so he took a more measured approach, could maybe be considered as intelligent? I would lean toward he didn't want to punch himself out.

 

Mike's an interesting case. He was incredibly skilled, and had the most dynamic movement of hand and foot ever seen at heavyweight, while also being a bit of a genius in terms of creating and setting up his offense, but he was quite one dimensional.

He couldn't fight at long range, for obvious reasons, but he also seemed to have an intense distain for proper infighting, instead choosing to grab hold of his opponents either to use dirty tactics or to let the referee separate them.

In terms of ring IQ, I think it's arguable Mike was intelligent, such as his practice prior to the Holmes fight and as others have mentioned, his knowledge of who to pace himself against, but I don't think he's in the upper echelons of Ring IQ like a Canto, Ali or Floyd.

 

John you make a good point but what i will say is though is that with Tyson's smaller attributes in height, reach, is there many other ways he could fight at Heavyweight though ? i understand what you're saying and i agree and you even stated "a style suited to his physical abilities" which is spot on.

But regarding fighters like Douglas for example he's 6'3 with an 83 inch reach how could Tyson really adapt a different style or approach except for to come forward and try and get under the jab ?

I think with Tyson being a Heavyweight and being pretty much smaller than every Heavyweight he faced in regards to height and reach he can't fight on the backfoot for example. So he's going to have to work alot harder than some of these giants like Lewis, Wladimir, Fury.

But one aspect i do think Tyson could've improved on when he's really up close to an opponent he allows himself to get tied up and nullified. And i guess that does fall into your argument about Tyson not really having a plan B, and is one of those fighters who's programmed to fight and if his style did get nullified he doesn't have an answer for it.

But as i said before i do think his smaller attributes should be taken into account aswell because there's not alot of ways a shorter Heavyweight with a smaller reach can fight except for on the front foot.

 

I think Mike is a smart guy but his ring IQ was not high. He had hassles adapting to being tied up and a long jab. He could get frustrated and resort to dirty tactics. I think he also struggled with his small frame at heavy. That said when he had trained hard and came in hot he forced the other guy to play his game, offsetting these disadvantages.

 

I think he had a high boxing iq when his body could respond the way he wanted. He could read opponents well and responded very well. My problem with Tyson is that he was unable to adapt when his physical talents started to fail him. He didn't really have a backup plan.

 

The physical limitations of fighters like Frazier and Tyson cannot be stressed enough.

That isn’t to down them at all - it’s to contrast how amazingly well they utilised what they did have.

We always talk in P4P terms but even when the weight is on par, notable dimensional short comings are still a major obstacle to get around.

Guys like Baer and Ali were blessed with the perfect physical equipment to begin with - if ideally utilised, that gives such fighters an early start out of the blocks to begin with.

The dimensionally smaller fighters generally have to work that much harder than their opponents of greater height and longer reach.

In working harder and at 100% of themselves, the smaller fighters can yield stunning and perhaps relatively easy looking complexions and outcomes.

However, they can’t afford to rest or coast at all - and them giving anything less than 100% equates to a greater drop in overall effectiveness than it does for larger opposition who might come in similarly under par within themselves but who have the dimensional advantages to compensate.

For the smaller fighters it can often be a case of kill or be killed.

A string of stunning victories might also be halted abruptly by an equally stunning loss IF they aren’t quite what they used to be.

Mike had creditable pure defence but his best form

of defence was his actual offence, just imo. Mike was what - 5’10” with a 71” reach?

That’s insane given the number of much larger opposition he prevailed over during a period when the SHWs were being ushered in.

 

I don't have a problem with any of your points DP.

As i hinted and you underlined a guy like Tyson is very limited in what he has available. The question i ask you, after our point filled posts, is this - do you consider him a high IQ fighter?

I know, it's a loaded question. I'm partial to just how deplorable his condition was in Tokyo, while at the same time acknowledging a great performance by Douglas.

It's extremely hard for him to show high IQ, and he probably didn't.

Again tho, within his own physical constraints he showed high IQ in some fights, but that was invariably initiated by sage corner advice by Kevin Rooney. He helped him emerge from a mini rut vs Thomas, and he helped him stay patient and pace himself perfectly against Holmes among other decent efforts. I guess Tyson was a reasonably high IQ fighter, but with Rooney in his corner. Of course that's not comparable IQ to Ali completely ignoring Dundee's plea's to get off the ropes vs Foreman and instead going with his own instinctual genius. It's pretty impressive when you can not only disregard Dundee, but do exactly what he is screaming for you not to do.......and be better off LOL

I must say i am not one that says Tyson was invincible with Rooney and all that, but the most underrated benefit Rooney gave him is the tactical focus and between rounds advice. He was finely tuned to Tyson's style and psyche.

Tyson didn't overly overdo the headhunting with Rooney whilst he often did without him which is an obvious minus to Tyson's IQ IMO.

 

At times I have entertained the notion that he played possum with Douglas in rd 8 and lured him into overreaching. That would have been a very clever move in that case.

If you want to make the argument that he conditioned Bruno and Ruddock to head shots only to switch to the body with devastating effect, that would also be clever. Of course, might be that he rather neglected the body early on.

One clear clear thing is in the Thomas fight, though. Before what would be the last round Rooney tells him to use the jab and throw combinations, be more busy, and he just calmly states that Thomas is getting tired and then goes on to take him out.