do you give Joey Maxim credit for stopping Ray Robinson

It seems to me that hydration is a factor which I have not seen in the posts from the portions of this thread which I have reviewed here. I admit I have not thoroughly reviewed all 11 pages. If for some reason, Robinson and his corner forgot about or had some philosophy against taking liquids during a fight, that would be your answer right there. Maybe Robinson had a bad experience, like an upset stomach or something during a prior fight, that made him avoid liquids. It could just be as simple as that. Just speculation, but I throw it out there for discussion.

 

Yet it was Maxim who was susceptible to extreme heat and had actually suffered heat stroke three times in that past.

 

Sorry but this is really friggin funny to me

 

I have never really bought into the idea that the losing fighter has some sort of moral victory, if an unusual set of circumstances led to their loss.

Maxim won under the terms that were agreed before the fight, so yes I give him credit for it.

This is the theater of the unexpected!

 

Maxim did have one problem that Robinson didn't have. He had to make weight.

Making 175 was NOT normal for Maxim.

After Jan 1, 1942, when he was still a teenager, Maxim fought at these weights (I don't have all his weights but most of them) up to the Robinson fight

over 190-----2
180's----------69
175-179------10
175 or less---3

Maxim weighed 172 on 7-28-1941 at 19. After Jan 1, 1942, he made 175 for these fights only up to the Robinson fight

1949-----Gus Lesnevich-----174 lbs.
1950-----Freddie Mills--------175 lbs.
1951-----Bob Murphy---------174 lbs.

so making 175 was not something Maxim did routinely at all. The 173 for Robinson is his lightest listed weight for a fight since he was a teenager.

So it seems Maxim might have been expected to be weakened by drying out to make weight. At least that was a reasonable possibility.

Robinson had no such problems. He could certainly keep up a normal fluid intake.

*those weights over the years show how much naturally bigger Maxim was than Robinson.

 

I'm not so sure how much of a problem this really was for Maxim.

In the run up to the Robinson bout, Maxim himself is quoted as having stated his "best fighting weight" is 174. [The Record (Hackensack, New Jersey) Monday, 23 June 1952]

He'd fought Bob Murphy, only ten months earlier at 173.5 and did not put on too much poundage, when he weighed in at 178 for a non-title affair against Ezzard Charles, four months after that.

In the pre-fight scribble for his next fight with Ted Lowry, Maxim is described as "Fat and flabby at 183 pounds". [Wisconsin State Journal (Madison, Wisconsin) Thursday, 06 March 1952]


Where he might have had to show some extra discipline, is during the 48-hour delay of his bout with Robinson, after having already weighed in on the day the fight had been initially postponed. Incidentally, Maxim had weighed 174.75lbs, at the 23rd of June weigh-in; Robinson at 160.

 

Could you quote what this article said about this? The problem per say is what an air conditioning unit would have been in '52 as even a window unit from the 80's wouldn't have been able to be installed close to a ring corner. The other point is much of the heat came from the lights as well as the temperature, Maxim's corner couldn't have gauged that in advance any more then Ray's corner could have. If this has any reality to it would it have been ice and a fan?

 

Maxim exposed Robinson. And Ray knew it to be true so he retired.

Fact.

 

Jokes, bud. Obviously not a very good one since it needs explaining.

The first is based off Maxim's reply to the question of how much a factor the heat played in his victory over Robinson to which he replied something like "Did I have air conditioning in my corner?"

The second is a mention of @mark ant 's famed March '96 issue of RING which provides content for 50% of all classic threads lately.

 

It's hard to express dry wit, in writing. But, help is at hand, with great examples to learn from, such as this top-class humor from @Seamus :-

 

It is fair to say that he had made 175 three times in the previous three years and fought well at that weight.

But his overall career shows that he was most comfortable fighting at a higher weight, and was over 180 for about 90 of his 116 career fights.

It seems reasonable that his walking around weight was in the 180's and he did have to bring it down for the Robinson fight. Robinson had no such problems, so only Maxim of the two might have had to restrict water intake leading up to the fight.

"fat and flabby at 183 pounds"

Well, then Maxim fought fat and flabby most of his career. He was over 180 for all three fights with Walcott, and at 180 when he won against Walcott. In their third fight, with the possibility of a shot a Louis for the winner, Maxim came in at 182. He was 181 1/2 for his heavyweight title shot against Charles. Hard to believe with the biggest prize in the sport at stake he didn't come in at what he and his trainer would have felt was his best weight. This writer might have been over-reacting to Maxim's build. No one would nickname him "Hercules" like Harold Johnson. He was not lean like Robinson or Gavilan. He didn't look like he was chiseled out of granite like Marciano or Basilio or Fullmer. Even against Robinson, at his lightest, he looked a bit soft around the middle. Some fighters always do but it doesn't necessarily equate to a lack of fighting ability.

"best fighting weight"

No doubt he fought well at 175, though.

His career weights show he was comfortable at heavyweight, and Maxim was rated at heavyweight during the 1940's. There was a huge size gap with the not so big middle, Robinson.

 

"Robinson had never been stopped before. "Robinson would never be stopped again (even at an advanced age).

And how many other men did Robinson fight who were ever rated in the heavyweight division?

"Maxim was not renowned for his power."

Against light-heavyweights and heavyweights. How many other middleweights actually went the distance with Maxim? The answer is none.

"Maxim had been taken the distance by opponents that he outweighed significantly before."

Two men went the distance with Maxim who gave up more lbs. than Robinson. Ezzard Charles twice (166 to 182 & 166 to 183) and Lloyd Marshall (166 to 187). Two points. These men were great themselves. And they are still considerably bigger than Robinson. Also, the Marshall fight was, I think, while Maxim was in the service, so who knows if he was really in top fighting condition.

And, I don't think Maxim dried out for those fights. Maxim was probably several lbs heavier than the 173 of the weigh in for Robinson by the time he stepped into the ring. So I think it likely Robinson was facing a larger weight gap than Charles faced.

Just on Maxim, enjoying a big weight pull was not the norm for him. He had 32 fights in which he conceded 10 or more lbs. to his opponent. It appears his big weight pulls were generally only over really great fighters like Charles, Marshall, Robinson, and Patterson.

 

One possibility for a collapse in a long bout has never been raised about this one as far as I am aware.

Generally if one man outlasts another it is because he trained harder and is in better shape.

Is it possible that Robinson held Maxim cheaply and didn't put in the training work he should have for fighting a much bigger man?

Woody Allen is on film remarking how totally full of himself Robinson was and how unrealistic he was about his lack of dancing and singing skills. Could this ego problem have slopped over into preparing for a boxing match?

I think this a question at least worth considering.

 

I don't think this is likely.

 

I believe that's all true ..... but I'm not prepared to accept Woody Allen as a character witness !
LOL