do you give Joey Maxim credit for stopping Ray Robinson

I'm not saying that Robinson would knockout Maxim but look at Maxim's KO record, it's not exactly impressive.

He would not have stopped Robinson.

In any case, Robinson was more durable than Bobo Olson who beat Maxim twice.

 

Maxim was winning the jabbing contest?

Really? Despite winning only one of the first 10 rounds before Robinson's exhaustion took effect?

And as for outboxing Maxim, he could have easily done so whilst conserving his energy.

This is Sugar Ray Robinson, after all.

 

"I'm not saying that Robinson would knockout Maxim"

Any serious advisor of Robinson should have told him KO'ing Maxim would be a real long shot and not something to base strategy on. After all, Robinson didn't KO Bell, Docusen, or Gavilan, who were welters. Expecting to KO a guy who had lasted the distance through 8 fights with heavy champions would be beyond arrogant.

"He would not have stopped Robinson."

In the fact, he did.

"In any case, Robinson was more durable than Bobo Olson who beat Maxim twice."

What is the evidence Olson was less durable? Actually? The only middle to stop Olson was Robinson, and who knows if Ray could stand up to his own punches and combinations. No one else had his ability to hit at that weight.

The other four KO's were to Moore, (who KO'd lots of guys including big heavies), Jones (who KO'd Folley and hurt Ali), McMurtry (possibly the least impressive puncher of these four, but who KO'd 25 men in 38 fights at heavy), and Torres, who was over 170 and KO'ing other top light-heavies.

Who knows if Robinson lasts against such big men and good punchers when he didn't last against Maxim.

The Maxim versus Olson fights also had Maxim not stopping Olson while he did stop Robinson. Olson was naturally bigger than Robinson, weighing 169 & 187 for the Maxim fights. I think Olson might well have been weakened making weight against Robinson in their last two fights, and this is not even considering that Maxim was on the downside of his career and began losing to almost everyone by this time.

"Maxim's KO record" "is not exactly impressive"

He stopped four men who weighed over 200 lbs. How many men that size did Robinson stop? You seem to basically ignore size. Maxim was rated at heavy through most of the 1940's at a time Robinson was rated at welter and/or was welter champion. This is a major gap in size.

 

"Despite winning only one of the first 10 rounds"

That scoring isn't my scoring. I see it as a lot more competitive.

"as for outboxing Maxim, he could have easily done so whilst conserving his energy."

Why didn't he? This would seem to be the obvious strategy so why didn't he take it if he had this option?

"Maxim was winning the jabbing contest?"

I think so.

"This is Sugar Ray Robinson, after all."

Very revealing statement. But p4p is an abstraction which means nothing when you are in the ring with a bigger man.

 

Have you been working on that for the last day?

You know full well that when I said Maxim would not have stopped Robinson I was referring to them fighting in less extreme conditions.

Just look at what actually happened in the fight, Robinson completely outboxed Maxim, Maxim never hurt Robinson and I really can't see how anyone can score more rounds for Maxim than the three that were awarded to him, two of which were after Robinson showed signs of extreme fatigue.

But if you want to continue with this view that the extreme conditions somehow saved Robinson from being stopped earlier in the fight by an opponent who could barely land a punch on him and therefore the oppressive heat actually worked in Robinson's favour then be my guest.

I think you and Maxim must be the only two people to say this and I seriously doubt that Maxim actually believed it deep down.

 

In fairness "the heat got him" was the point of view of the ringside experts. Here is perhaps the best known of them, Nat Fleischer, in his Ring Magazine summation of the fight:

"Sugar Ray had the light heavyweight crown all but clinched when the heat got him."

"He bossed the contest from the start to the 13th round."

"On my scorecard, Ray gained every round through the eleventh."

"Robinson was the victim of the terrific pace he had set to get his man early."

But Fleischer has a caveat, referring to a championship fight between Harry Jaffra and Spider Armstrong in 1940 in Baltimore in oppressive over 102 degree heat in which both men went 15 rounds. But in this fight, "Maxim gauged himself properly while Ray tried to beat the heat. He failed."

Later, "Sugar Ray displayed still another fault--he held too often. That was no way to conserve energy when facing an opponent who was so much heavier and who was strong at the weight." (aside--while one post criticized Maxim for the holding, I think Robinson was the one generally initiating clinches)

Somehow this leads Nat to "the folly of having champions in two divisions facing each other in a bout in which the weight problems gives the title holder in the higher division a distinct advantage." (aside--????? But Nat just wrote that Ray dominated the fight. This only makes sense if he is arguing that Maxim's size led to Ray's collapse, which by the way I think is true.)

This leads to this conclusion------"the time has arrived for the boxing moguls of our country and those abroad to place the ban on such bouts and force the title holder in each division to meet legitimate challengers in his own class." (aside-???)

and "Discussing a return between Robinson and Maxim after the uninspired milling in their recent contest while Archie Moore, for seven years a top ranking contender in Maxim's division, is unable to get a crack at the crown, is a travesty." (aside--this is true all the way)

Nat Fleischer's comments from Ring Magazine, Sept 1952.

 

I always turn the sound off. I used to judge, prob 5000 fights in total, so you get to know yourself.

 

And after watching the fight, reading this really good thread, and very good debate, it gets very simple, there was a fight and Maxim won it. No skullduggery, dodgy ref, stoppage etc. Maxim won that fight, not some hypothetical fight, full credit.

 

But that issue of The Ring also had another take, by Dan Daniel

"little would have been written, little would have been said over the radio, about the extreme heat if the contest had gone the scheduled fifteen rounds."

"But Robinson collapsed, and was unable to come out for the fourteenth."

"This developed a story the like of which cannot be found in the annals of boxing."

"Comparatively little was written about the techniques of the contestants. Little attention was given to such lines of attack and defense as Maxim may have effected. No greater attention was paid to the Robinson maneuvers. It was HOT." (aside--yes, folks seem shocked if it is pointed out that Maxim jabbed well in many rounds or went to the body with effect)

"Apparently, it occurred to few of the reporters that it had been just as HOT for Maxim as it had been for Robinson."

Then Daniel makes his main point. There have been lots of fights in similar hot conditions w/o one of the fighters simply collapsing. Certainly common sense backs him up, as I doubt if there was air conditioning at most arenas in the first half of the 20th century with sweaty crowds, ancient ring lights, and plenty of heat waves. Heat waves didn't abruptly pop up in 1952.

He gives examples:

Joe Gans vs Battling Nelson, 1906-----"They fought under the sun out in the Nevada desert" "forty-two round battle"

John L Sullivan vs Jake Kilrain, 1888-----"on the afternoon of July 8. 1889" "This contest, on turf, was fought on a blazing day." (aside-Mississippi on July 8!)

"They fought 75 rounds under London Prize Ring rules, and after 2 hours and 15 minutes, Jake had to give in."

"But nowhere is there any ascription of Sullivan's victory and Kilrain's defeat to the heat."

And the Jaffra-Armstrong fight of 1940 with the referee Nat Fleischer commenting, "It was very hot that night but it never occurred to us to involve the thermometer in the result."

Daniel mentions that due to the old lights, "the heat in and around the ring" for the Tunney-Gibbons fight was intolerable.

And there are others, although not mentioned is Jeffries and Sharkey going 25 rounds under blazing lights in 1899, which seems another good example.

My conclusion-----common sense tells us there must have been lots of fights over the decades in extreme heat and so it is hard to see why Maxim and Robinson would be unique or even all that unusual.

So why focus on the heat? Well, no need to focus on an excuse unless you need an excuse.

 

Yes he does get credit ...But I don't know if they are so much excuses as simple facts of the fights … I mean they had to swap out the ref because he couldn't take the heat … Does the fight go differently if it wasn't for the heat, absolutely I believe. Probably changes strategy from the get go, etc.. Does it change the winner, who knows , maybe not … But I agree with you there must have been a lot of fights in this condition. But wasn't it SRR only stoppage being an RTD?? You would have to think that Heat was the main factor ..

 

Well, I scored the fight and this is how it came out.

1-----Maxim
2-----Robinson
3-----Robinson
4-----Maxim
5-----Robinson
6-----Maxim
7-----Robinson
8-----Even
9-----Robinson
10---Even
11---Robinson
12---Maxim
13---Maxim

So Robinson was solidly ahead 6-3-2 after eleven rounds, but only 6-5-2 after 13 for me. He could have lost a decision, and would have if he didn't do better in the last two rounds than he did in the 12th & 13th.

Just my take on the film, and I concede up front that I am only watching a film while the judges were at ringside.

What really stood out as odd to me is Maxim doing very little in rounds 8 to 11 until he picked up the pace in round 12 and really picked it up in round 13. I wonder why he didn't start moving a couple of rounds earlier.

 

"You would have to think that Heat was the main factor"

Reasonable. But don't overlook that Maxim was the only good big man Robinson was ever in the ring with. Most discount size.

 

Agreed .. but he's finishing the fight it wasn't for the heat .. You sort of have to assume that right?

 

It is hypothetical. I think the way the fight would have been fought if cooler is probably reflected in the first round. Maxim would have been much more active. What difference would this have made? Moot point, but I feel size might have won it for him anyway. But all this is just guesswork while the conditions you fight under are the conditions you have to adapt to and Robinson either didn't or couldn't.

 

In how many of those fight was one man15.5lbs the heavier?
In how many of them was the referee unable to continue?
The Jeffries Sharkey fight is never mentioned without the heat from the krieg lights being mentioned.WTF!
Peter Wilson of the Daily Mirror said just sitting ringside his clothes were soaked with perspiration and abook of matches he tried to use to light a cigar were sodden into uselessness.
You 're trying a bit too hard here!