Do you guys rate Holyfields wins over Foreman and Holmes?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Rob3, Jul 3, 2008.

  1. Rob3

    Rob3 Member Full Member

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    Be interested in how you view these two wins for Holyfield. Given that dare I say Foreman/Holmes would be in many people's top 10 if not higher. TBH I'm not a massive Holyfield fan so I'm not asking to big up Evander, but are those two wins still just viewed as victories over pass it vets who he really should of knocked out or has that changed given the context of what Foreman acheived or even what Holyfield did later on?

    I'm a bit rusty on my boxing history tbh and new to the Classic forum so sorry if it's been asked before.
     
  2. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    They were decent but not particularly impressive wins in my view, especially the Holmes fight.
    Despite what they accomplished - Foreman with his amazing comeback and subsequent title win, and Holmes beating a legitimate contender in Mercer - we must remember that they were old, old men and a long way past their best.

    Evander received praise for his winning effort against the stubborn Foreman, but the press came down on him hard after the Holmes fight, where Evander looked far from convincing.

    In some ways, Evander was in a no-win situation. Foreman had earned the title shot and so did Holmes. Despite this, he was heavily condemned for fighting two 40+ year old fighters in a short space of time.
    Holmes made him look bad, scoring with some sharp right hands and while Holyield deservedly earned the win, he never had Holmes in any sort of distress.

    Ring magazine gave his fight against Holmes a scathing report and asked the question when Evander would step up and face a young lion.
     
  3. Rob3

    Rob3 Member Full Member

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    Your right he was obviously in a no win situation. I just wonder though 'if' he had knocked one of them out, at the time he would probably come in for even more criticism in terms of fighting 'old men' but historically?

    Are these two wins viewed a bit better given the current development of Heavyweights seemingly 'peaking' later on?
     
  4. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I think Holyfield's performance against Foreman is one of his career best.
    That's still a vintage Holyfield, demonstrating beautiful combination punching that should rank alongside ANY heavyweight fighter ever.
    Foreman's sheer bulk, immense strength and power made him an awkward proposition for Holyfield, who's style relies heavily on getting stuck in with blistering counter-attacks.
    I think any boxing fan should watch the fight to appreciate some marvellous and creative combos from The Real Deal.
    Failing to knock out Foreman is a harsh criticism to level at Holyfield.

    Holyfield was unimpressive against Holmes, though he clearly won the fight. I think that wily 42 year old Holmes would have made many other great heavyweights look a bit ordinary too. Holmes was good enough to spoil Holyfield's efforts that night, and Holyfield was never impressive when forced to come forward all the time. I think it was perhaps an off-night for Holyfield or even a sign of him starting to lose his youthful style, and possibly due to losing motivation. Having said that, it was by no means a terrible performance and Holmes was certainly a genuine contender.
     
  5. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    My personal opinion is still the same regardless. Foreman struggled with the likes of Alex Stewart and lost to Morrison, and was in need of a KO to beat Moorer. (Luckily he got it.)
    For his age he did brilliantly, but had he been 29 he would not have been viewed as a fighter of real note based on these types of performances.

    One could argue when Foreman and Holmes hit their peaks, but we can safely conclude it was a long time before they fought Evander.

    How do you see things?
     
  6. DamonD

    DamonD Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I have to agree with all of this.

    The Holmes fight in particular was a frustrating exercise, because that late-era Holmes in particular was good at making people look bad and breaking up their rhythm, and Holyfield is very much a rhythm kind of fighter. Tyson had famously punched Holmes out in 4 rounds, and no matter what circumstances we can attach to that, the casual public simply doesn't give a damn and so the image of Evander getting cut and going to points just made the critics say he was much less effective and not the kind of thrilling knockout guy they liked for a HW champion...in other words, the sin of not being Mike Tyson.

    I think they're both decent wins. Both guys had a lot of experience, George was a heavy-hitter and Holmes was crafty as hell, but you can't avoid that fact that they were both around 42 and were lacking the stamina and speed of their younger days.

    Sometimes better ring smarts will only take you so far. As Holyfield found out in turn when he got close to (and passed) 40.
     
  7. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    His power was not impressive but he was ahead and did not look for the KO, they are still wins, Evander had his share of poor fights, lack of stamina spell with ,Bowe,Moorer,Bean, and Ruiz...not the same man who dismantled Tyson and Douglas
     
  8. surreal deal

    surreal deal Liverpool via Krypton Full Member

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    In retrospect,Foreman was highly dangerous at the time.
    Who else would have beaten Foreman then?Only Bowe,Lewis and Ruddock would have had a chance.
    Beating Holmes meant nothing though.
     
  9. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    Only Bowe, Lewis and Ruddock had a chance? What about a glass chinned fighter with very poor stamina? Let's call him Morrison.
     
  10. surreal deal

    surreal deal Liverpool via Krypton Full Member

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    Yes i see what you mean.I think the Foreman that Morrison fought had more wear and tear on him than the Holyfield Version(the Holy and Stewart fights were tough)and Morrison followed Evanders blueprint,but yes he'd have had a chance against the earlier Foreman.:good
     
  11. godking

    godking Active Member Full Member

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    How did Foreman earn a titleshot other then his name .

    Holmes did earn his shot by beating Mercer Foreman did not.
     
  12. Lobotomy

    Lobotomy Guest

    When Holmes faced Tyson, he tried to box Mike as though he was still 29 years old, though coming off an 18 month period of retirement. But he retooled his approach completely by the time he schooled Mercer, and succeeded in finishing the lesson Damiani and Morrison had started on Ray.

    I do not believe a peak Tyson would have been able to force a stoppage against the cagey version of Holmes that Holyfield decisioned. McCall and Neilson later edged Larry by razor thin margins which arguably should have gone in the Holmes win column. Evander produced the only clear cut decision win any professional would ever record against this master boxer, and Larry would compete at a very respectable level for another decade.

    Holyfield performed very well against Foreman, but so would Moorer later on. However, Holy got to the final bell. I can't imagine any heavyweight of the era looking good against Holmes when Evander took him on.

    I felt that Holy's win over Holmes was more impressive than the one over Foreman, in the sense that I thought Larry was the bigger threat, coming off that 12 rounder over Mercer.

    Marciano defeated Walcott and Moore in title fights. Some feel this diminishes his legacy, while many feel the opposite. I tend to think of Holmes and Foreman as Holyfield's Walcott and Moore. (Extremely apropos in George's case, considering that 'Ole Arch was the original architect of Foreman's successful comeback.)
     
  13. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    By re-establishing a career. I forget the number of fights he had before facing Evander, but it was above 20. Anyone who is for example 20-0 and with admittedly a name to go with it is going to be in the hunt for a title shot sooner or later, don't you think?

    Granted, Foreman didn't face a single contender prior to the Holyfield fight, but then again plenty of fighters have followed the same blueprint over the years and gotten title shots. Why couldn't George?
     
  14. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I agree with your first point, but disagree with the second.

    I think when we look back, it is very difficult to look good against a cagey, crafty opponent who can fight off the ropes. Foreman looked like crap against Ali, and Holyfield likewise against Holmes. Holy also didn't have the concussive power of George, so he was in for a long evening. Still, he did what he had to do, and that's win.

    On your second point, my view is that Larry had to hope that Evander was as stupid as Mercer was, and that he could outfox the younger and stronger champion.
    I don't think there was any reason to believe that Larry could either purely outbox Evander (his legs were more or less finished) or force a stoppage against such a resilient foe.
    Since his legs were gone, Larry had to make for the ropes each round and rely on his experience and guile to win...a tall order.

    It did work against Mercer, but to me although Ray could be pretty potent at times, he was also proved to be unimaginitve and rather slow-witted in certain fights. He fought a particularly stupid fight against Larry, who almost toyed with him at times.

    Against George, Evander had to be on guard throughout the fight. George, had he landed shots akin to those he landed on Cooney, could have snatched the title. Big George also ceaselessly stalked Holyfield all night, and even Evander was later heard to remark that George made him fight when he didn't want to.
     
  15. Lobotomy

    Lobotomy Guest

    Your conclusions are perfectly reasonable, and I have no great quarrel with your counterpoints.

    Holmes claimed he had a contact lens problem during his challenge of Holyfield, and while I believe Evander would have decisioned him anyways, we all know how compromised vision can affect ring performance. (However, my chief impression from Larry's autobiography is of someone who made excuse after excuse for subpar showings in matches he won, a rather bizarre sort of justification one would expect from a sore loser, not a consistent winner.)

    Holy was indeed much smarter than Mercer, and learned from Ray's mistakes. (I consider his win over Bowe to be a masterfully resourceful performance.)

    Ray Mercer had good athletic gifts, but also a questionable quality between the ears. The way Damiani and Morrison bolted out to substantial leads against him should have served as a ear-splitting wake-up call, but he ignored the blinding red light flashing, and it eventually cost him against Larry. (Of course it goes without saying that if boxers had the ability to become biochemists then they wouldn't be likely to be fighting for pay at the world class level.)

    George could take out Moorer with a single punch (and had to). Holmes had to decision Mercer by schooling him over the 12 round distance, a more impressive feat in my book. (Don't forget that when the opportunity to box over just ten rounds was offered, it was Larry who wanted Mercer for 12 instead. He was thus competition tempered for Holyfield.) Naturally, I understand and accept my view to be a minority perspective.