Do you love Muhammad Ali? If so why so and if not why not?

I'm with you in that I'm definitely more of a Frazier fan.

I also have a deep seated loathing for all things NOI related.

I also find the relentless swagger a bit more tiresome than charming, but this can be chalked up to a generational thing as I have the luxury of its novelty having long since worn off and growing up in an age where a certain degree of clowning and self-aggrandizing is expected of most high-profile athletes.

That said, I'm manning the oar right next to you in the same boat - where every time I see tape of even an older Clay, hell even Larry's punching bag, I am a little bit awed and humbled by the considerable physical gifts and the equally impressive assuredness and discipline-borne mastery that accompanies it.

 

I'm indifferent/neutral towards him. I respect his accomplishments and he was a great fighter. Even the idol worship is tolerable in tiny doses, but the lengths to which his Loyal Followers go to defend every single thing he did that may be a legitimate reason for people to not be a fan is what drives me crazy.

As far as Ali himself, he seems like a decent enough guy now. But over the years? The man's given plenty of fodder to people that could offend them for one reason or another. I still think it was a real dick move for him to say what he did about Frazier and basically treating other black fighters as doormats all while ascending to the status of being a "symbol".

To continue playing devil's advocate- we've got a member of an anti-white radical group, who didn't hesitate to throw other black fighters under the bus, capitalized on his celebrity to get questionable decisions, was pro-segregation, womanized like no tomorrow, and has millions of rabid followers who think he walked on water.

Yep. I have no idea why some people might not love that.

 

You can't deconstruct what you don't understand which is the main point. There's no point in my doing any lengthy response because you simply don't get it. AND NO freaking way in hell do you know more than me about American History regarding its culture and the times during the 60's & 70's. Saying so is embarrassing. Your perspective is clearly from a European. Just like you and Chris perspective on Dempsey (Although more justified). You also aren't more read in Ali. You're more read on the feud between Frazier and Ali. That's the only thing you "know."

You said something about minority groups know not being racist (To the equivalence of Ali). The difference between now and then is miles gone. Ali couldn't eat in his own town. Now, we have affirmative action which reiterates minorities getting more chances at scholarships and colleges. Obviously, most blacks are poorer and in worse position because of past grievances from whites. However, the scales have been much more balanced. At least through effort.

My point with Ali is. Do we know how we would react to racial injustice? How we would react to the teachings of the Nation of Islams preachings? The point is the times were much different. If you don't understand the context of things, you'll get a flat criticism of this and this without understanding the situation. And that's all you're doing.

 

I do love Muhammad Ali. Growing up I always knew who he was, and later in life I idolized him for a long time. As I gained maturity, I realized that the man wasn't perfect, in or outside the ring, the way many people would have you beleive. But so what? The fact is, in addition to making everyone from Billy Crystal to Dianna Ross want to talk about boxing, to this very day in 2009, the world takes notice when Ali makes an appearance. Rightly or wrongly, the man is arguably the most charismatic person of the 20th century. At least top 5. Love him or hate him that's saying something.

It's captivating to watch footage like thew movie When we were kings...the man is hilarious and has roomfulls of people hanging on his every word. He was blessed with unbeleivable and almost scary charisma.

 

I like Ali the fighter as he was great and he fought the best out there.

I don't like all the nut huggery that goes with Ali, as I cannot watch an Ali fight with the sound on, cause of ****s like pecheco etc... and his constant fouling (holding the back of the head) and nothing ever happens.

I don't like Ali for the way he acted towards Frasier, as Frasier helped him out when he could not box , then was a **** to him.

He is an egotisical **** that had to belittle everyone else to make himself feel/look good.

 

Ali, at one time had it all. Looks, fighter, poe

 

POEMS, ETC..aLI WAS THE GREATEST.

 

This has been a fascinating thread in many ways.

Although I can't say I fell in love with boxing because of Ali, (I didn't get into the sport because of any one guy) Muhammad was certainly one of the boxers, probably the main boxer actually, on whom I focused a lot of my attention early on. As I said in another thread, my earliest memory of watching a fight included Ali as one of the participants.
He was on dozens of magazine covers, and the focus of hundreds of articles. Even when another boxer was the subject of an article, Ali was often mentioned somewhere. He had huge pull.

So yeah, it was easy to get to know Ali through print and video. For me back then, it was easy to see where the appeal of the man lay. He was simply one of a kind with that vibrant, bright personality, the quick wit, and that slightly mesmerizing boxing style of his. One got the sense though, that behind all the bragging and showmanship, there was a real person underneath; a deep, compassionate person who loved people. Despite all the flash, there was real substance there as well. I loved Ali as many did.

But then I slowly but surely fell out of love with Ali. Partly it was because I felt that his showmanship and larger-than-life character was overblown by the media, that his stance on racial and societal issues had been focussed on too much while the efforts of other fighters, notably Joe Louis, who did perhaps more for the black athlete and blacks in general, were virtually ignored. Ali's loud mouth got him a lot of attention, whereas quieter types like Joe didn't garner anything near the same attention.
Partly it was because I was just getting sick of seeing reruns of his fights on TV, whilst footage of other gifted boxers was barely ever shown. I was also tired of everyone just loving the guy, pretty much.
As McGrain pointed out earlier, google Sonny Liston images and what do you get? Ali standing over Liston, Ali punching Liston, Liston retiring in his corner...it's Ali, Ali, Ali.
You can do the same for Foreman, Frazier and others who Ali fought and it's much the same.
Seriously, it gets irksome to say the least. It's almost as if these guys only have any significance because they fought Ali, and it's total rubbish.
So for many years when the subect of Ali came up, my eyes would almost automatically shift to another thread, or I'd turn the page if I was reading a magazine or book. I'd had my fill of Ali.

Oddly enough, just as I slowly and almost imperceptably fell out of love with Ali, my interest in him has slowly been re-awakened, but with a new, less naive perception of him. I'm aware of his faults as a man and a fighter, but that has humanised him all the more to me.

In Ali, boxing has an icon, a true legend. One reporter once likened meeting Ali to having an audience with God. Ali simply has a mystique about him that probably no other fighter in history can match. Ali hasn't got many years left on this earth, so we really should try and appreciate just what we've got before it's too late.

 

Not a huge fan.

Since he retired I like him more

I like Frazier a lot more. I dont like the way Ali verbally bullied Frazier and was praised for it. Ali's antics in the lead up to their first fight was downright shameful

I also hate the way the media says he is the greatest fighter of all time (Although theres not a lot he can do about that)

 

You can't not like Ali for everything he achieved in and out of the ring.

My only gripe is his affiliation with the NOI. That group turned him into a really twisted human being.

However I do believe that Ali wasnt as clever as people make out and was quite malleable at that time. He allowed them to use him for their own purposes.

Like a lot of NOI members he appears to be over all that these days and a better person for it.

Also, a lot of his quotes seem to come out of innocence rather than real intelligence.

 

The thing with the Nation Of Islam,is that while it was an organisation with one dismensional views,it did make a lot of black people feel good about themselves. Muhammad Ali discovered it when he needed something like it to express his views about certain things. And no,I do n't believe that he was ever racist. All things along those lines,that he came out with,were in reactionary response to the racism that he encountered,as a black man growing up in the North America of the time. Look at how many whites he had in his camp. Angie Dundee,Ferdie Pacheco and Gene Kilroy for a start.

 

No, what he's impying is that the offspring of mixed-racial couples should be viewed as physically and socially undesirable by their "intelligent" grandparents.

And he makes no distinction between the oppressor majority and the oppressed minority in his argument.

Whereas you say :

Ali says :

For Ali this isn't an intellectual argument for anti-colonial struggle. For him it applies to whites as well as blacks, and he supports the views of the "intelligent white man in his right mind" who would be horrified by his grandchildren being of mixed race, the white man who would forbid it. And presumably the white man who has pride in "white blood" and the "purity of the white race" and a disdain for race-mixing in general would be holding the "correct view" by Ali's argument.

And that's not surprising, because it is a matter of record that "The Honorable" Elijah Muhammad was a admirer of The American Nazi Party, and once invited the notorious self-styled "Fuhrer" of that organization to address his followers.

And Elijah Muhammad preached that all races should stay seperated from one another.
And if you do the research you will find that this "prophet's" views on race-mixing weren't sanitized with semi-intellectual or partially defensible theories of anti-colonial struggle.
He viewed different "races" as different "species" and believed God had forbidden the mixing of races, rather than it just being an imperative related to the socio-political context of the times.
But then again, this same guy preached some crazy stuff, he was a nut. And to understand Muhammad Ali it's right that we accurately depict what the ideology of the NOI under Elijah Muhammad was, and not dress it up in the more sophisticated categories of anti-colonial or black liberation theory.

This is just one of the articles Elijah wrote "The Shame of Intermixing Races" :

[url]http://www.muhammadspeaks.com/IntermixingRaces.html[/url]