Do you think a dominant champ often removes them from being able to beat a HOFer?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by bailey, Jan 26, 2015.

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  1. bailey

    bailey Loyal Member Full Member

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    Do you think a dominant champ often removes them from being able to beat a HOFer from their division?

    Let me explain.

    Take W Klitschko for example. He has been a dominant champ at HW for some time, but if Wlad wasnt around, theres a chance that one of the fighters Wlad beat may have gone on to be the top HW, but due to Wlad beating them, Wlad may never get the deserved credit.
    This is an example but hopefully you can follow what I mean.
    Had Wlad not been around would Haye with wins over Ruiz, Barrett, Harrison, Chisora, Valuev be rated higher and a dominant HW?

    Wlad was just being used as an example, but there have been other dominant and long reigning champs

    Discuss
     
    bailey, Jan 26, 2015
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  2. cslb

    cslb Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Haye( my toe hurts) would be a joke in any reality.
     
    cslb, Jan 26, 2015
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  3. bailey

    bailey Loyal Member Full Member

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    This thread is not so much about Haye or Wlad its about the possibility that a dominant champ beats the opposition before they have a chance to become possibly great.

    Hopkins was a dominant MW champ and had he not been around its possible that Joppy or Holmes may have been the dominant MW champ
     
    bailey, Jan 26, 2015
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  4. cslb

    cslb Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    There are plenty of eras where HOF fighters fought each other. Hearns losing to Leonard or Hagler didn't make him a bum. The fighters you have listed as examples simply weren't "great" material.
     
    cslb, Jan 26, 2015
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  5. CST80

    CST80 De Omnibus Dubitandum Staff Member

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    Most of the so called "greats" weren't that great because they all lost to other fighters in that era who are also "greats", but the fact that they lost to one another so frequently means it was a competitive era and everyone was about even, who knows how good a lot of Wlad's victims really are because in this era if you lose you're forgotten, however Povetkin is flipping that script a little.
     
    CST80, Jan 26, 2015
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  6. cslb

    cslb Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Wlad's victims should be forgotten. lol
     
    cslb, Jan 26, 2015
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  7. madballster

    madballster Loyal Member Full Member

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    The thread starter is spot on:

    The 'greats' of the 70s were a circle jerk of guys beating eachother. Each ones credibility depends on the wins and losses versus one another. Put one dominant champion into the 70s (e.g. prime Lewis) who beats them all and suddenly there are no HOFers in the 70s, only a single ATG champion.
     
    madballster, Jan 26, 2015
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  8. CST80

    CST80 De Omnibus Dubitandum Staff Member

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    :verysadYour hatred blinds you to reality
     
    CST80, Jan 26, 2015
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  9. CST80

    CST80 De Omnibus Dubitandum Staff Member

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    Wlad's very underrated recent record.
    11 opponents Undefeated, 12 with only 1 loss
    Kubrat Pulev Undefeated 20-0 11 KO's
    Alexander Povetkin Undefeated 26-0 18 KO's Has since stopped Takam and Charr.
    Francesco Pianeta Undefeated 28-0 15 KO's
    Mariusz Wach Undefeated 28-0 15 KO's
    Tony Thompson 31-1 19 KO's His 1 loss was a 4 round UD, Wlad stopped him twice. Stopped Price twice.
    David Haye 25-1 23 KO's
    Sam Peter Undefeated 24-0 22 KO's
    Eddie Chambers 35-1 18 KO's
    Ruslan Chagaev Undefeated 25-0 17 KO's
    Sultan Ibragimov Undefeated 22-0 17 KO's
    Calvin Brock Undefeated 29-0 22 KO's
    Eliseo Castillo Undefeated 18-0 15 KO's
    Chris Byrd 32-1 19 KO's 1 KO loss to Ike, Wlad beat him twice.
    Fabio Eduardo Moli 30-2 16 KO's, Never stopped Wlad stopped him in 2.
    Ray Mercer 31-4 22 KO's Losses were to Lennox, Holyfield, Holmes, Ferguson Wlad Stopped him in 6
    Monte Barrett 23-1 13 KO's Wlad stopped him in 7

    Wins over undefeated opponents
    Only 6 of Ali's opponents were undefeated.
    Only 2 of Frazier's opponents were undefeated.
    Only 12 of Holmes' opponents were undefeated, 4 with 1 loss.
    Only 4 of Norton's opponents were undefeated.
    Only 7 of Vitali's opponent were undefeated.
    Only 7 of Tyson's opponents were undefeated.
    Only 7 of Foreman's opponents were undefeated.
    Only 2 of Holyfield's opponents were undefeated.
    Only 2 of Louis' opponents were undefeated.
    Only 3 of Marciano's opponents were undefeated.
    Only 4 of Lewis' opponents were undefeated.
    Only 7 of Bowe's opponents were undefeated.
    Only 2 of Liston's opponents were undefeated.
    Only 6 of Charles' opponents were undefeated. He lost to 4 of them.

    KO's
    Foreman 68
    Wlad 53
    Louis 52
    Charles 52
    Holmes 44
    Tyson 44
    Marciano 43
    Vitali 41
    Liston 39
    Ali 37
    Frazier 27
    Norton 33
    Bowe 33
    Lewis 32
    Holyfield 29

    The Combined Losses of the ATG's Opponents
    This isn't 100% perfect, it might be slightly high by 10 to 15 because I counted rematches, but its pretty close.

    Foreman's opponents had a combined total of 627 losses in 81 matches.
    Frazier's opponents had a combined total of 197 losses in 36 matches.
    Holmes' opponents had a combined total of 384 losses in 75 matches.
    Liston's opponents had a combined total of 448 losses in 54 matches.
    Louis' opponents had a combined total of 713 losses in 69 matches.GOAT
    Marciano's opponents had a combined total of 515 losses in 49 matches.
    Lennox's opponents had a combined total of 230 losses in 43 matches.
    Ali's opponents had a combined total of 300* losses in 61 matches.

    (*Ali fought Spinks twice, Norton 3 times, Frazier 3 times, Liston 2 times Chuvalo 2 times, Quarry 2 times, Patterson 2 times, Cooper 2 times, Bugner 2 times lowering his opponents loss records, that an awful lot of rematches.)


    Wladimir's opponents had a combined total of 351 losses in 66 matches, if you eliminate 2 of his early opponents Speight and Young it drops to 288.

    Its hard to quantify how good the competition was from era to era, but this may give a little insight.

    Average Loss Percentage All Matches
    4.9% Ali*
    5.1% Holmes
    5.3% Wlad
    5.3% Lennox
    5.4% Frazier
    7.7% Foreman
    9.0% Liston
    10.3% Louis
    10.5% Marciano


    Adjusted Only Counting Wins
    5.3% Ali*
    5.5% Holmes
    5.5% Wlad
    5.6% Lennox
    6.1% Frazier
    8.2% Foreman
    8.9% Liston
    10.3% Louis
    10.5% Marciano



    Combined Wins of the ATG's Opponents
    Foreman's opponents had a combined total of 1588 wins
    Frazier's opponents had a combined total of 740 wins
    Holmes' opponents had a combined total of 1416 wins
    Liston's opponents had a combined total of 914 wins
    Louis' opponents had a combined total of 2512 wins
    Marciano's opponents had a combined total of 1371 wins
    Lennox's opponents had a combined total of 1044 wins
    Ali's opponents had a combined total of 1687 wins (if you eliminate Archie Moore it drops to 1503)
    Wladimir's opponents had a combined total of 1594 wins (that's a lot of wins for "losers")

    Average Opponent Win Percentage
    Louis 38.01% ***
    Ali 30.12%
    Marciano 27.9%
    Lennox 25.4%
    Wlad 25.3 %
    Frazier 23.1%
    Holmes 20.5%
    Foreman 20.8%
    Liston 18.2%

    (Louis' opponents also had the most Losses as well)
     
    CST80, Jan 26, 2015
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  10. cslb

    cslb Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You call it "hatred", I call it objectivity. lol^^^^^ Not this thread again. Where does the records of these fighters reflect the quality of their opposition? Numbers without context don't mean very much.
     
    cslb, Jan 26, 2015
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  11. CST80

    CST80 De Omnibus Dubitandum Staff Member

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    So think because a guy beats the living hell out of everyone who steps in the ring with him automatically makes his opponents losers, try being truly objective for a minute and consider the fact that Wlad may be just that damn good.
     
    CST80, Jan 26, 2015
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  12. cslb

    cslb Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Klitschko beat the "living hell" out of Pulev? I must have fell asleep and missed that part. To be objective, you must also consider the possibility that maybe these guys that Klitschko is getting into the ring with simply aren't that good.
     
    cslb, Jan 26, 2015
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  13. CST80

    CST80 De Omnibus Dubitandum Staff Member

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    Well since the greats of the 70's aren't fighting now neither of us will ever truly know, but Wlad beating everyone soundly that he steps in the ring with for the last 10 years isn't a fluke and isn't all because this era is worthless that's being very subjective.

    And yes I call dropping someone countless times and giving them a concussion beating the hell out of them.
     
    CST80, Jan 26, 2015
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  14. cslb

    cslb Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    We all look at things from our own perspective. Getting back to the theme of the thread, I think Gerry Coo ney would be a dominant heavyweight nowadays but he fought in the wrong era. I meant Povetkin, not Pulev but to be honest, all these guys look the same in the ring to me.
     
    cslb, Jan 26, 2015
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  15. Brighton bomber

    Brighton bomber Loyal Member Full Member

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    Just because a fighter is utterly dominant in his era, it does not mean he won't beat a HOF level fighter.

    Joe Louis was very dominant, yet he has Conn, Schmeling and Wallcott who are all hall of fame inductees. Holmes was another long reigning dominant champion who has wins over Norton and a faded Ali who are HOF fighters. Even Tyson had Holmes as a HOF fighter on his resume.

    It's not uncommon for a future dominant champion to beat the faded greats of the last era or beat a future great who goes on to be HOF.
     
    Brighton bomber, Jan 26, 2015
    #15
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