Do you think Ali believed he could beat Holmes in 1980?

Just regarding Holmes perceived successes against Ali in sparring.

Holmes basically acknowledged Ali voluntarily allowing Larry to land shots or at least try and tee off while Ali was on the ropes.

The proof is that while Holmes acknowledged Ali’s deliberately elected tactic, he also said that he had no idea that it was something that Ali was going to take into the Foreman fight as an express strategy.

Like many, Larry was shocked by Ali’s laying on the ropes and inviting shots in Zaire - despite Ali often doing just that during his sparring sessions with Holmes.

There are some less often seen snippets of their sparring sessions where Ali is expressly on the offence and Muhammad was really dishing it to Larry - including landing some very sweet right hands.

In their 1980 match, you could see Ali banking on his right hand doing some major damage - and, at least in the first round IIRC, Ali did land a few nice right bands - but after or not long after round 1, for an already exhausted Ali, that was all she wrote.

 

Everyone bar the poster that thrust the fantasy forward and a few others know full well this was the case. You are bang on.

 

Of course he did. This was Ali, we are talking about.

 

I can see where you're coming from here Swag, I doubt he went in there fully confident of the outcome. I think his belief was probably similar to a pole vaulter going in against Armand Duplantis. Of course, they go in there thinking "you never know, he might have an off day and I could get into his head and it may unsettle him", because they're always competing to win, but I think by 1980 Ali knew how good Holmes was, and I doubt he thought he could beat the best version of Holmes- but possibly thought he could beat an off-night version (i.e. one overawed and put off his game by being in with his hero).

 

Norman Mailer opens his book The Fight with the sparring sessions, Ali is laying on the ropes vs Bossman Jones and letitng Roy Williams hit his in the arms too, but not Holmes (that's not to say he didn't in other sessions, of course) and Holmes is definitely having some success- and this is written at the time, not re-told 40 years later.

Sample: "(Holmes) boxed aggressively for 3 rounds, hitting Ali more often that he got hit in return, which in itself might not have been unusual- sometimes Ali would not throw a punch through all of a round- but on this afternoon it seemed as if Ali did not know how to use Holmes....

...once in a while Ali would set out to chastise Holmes for his impudence, but Holmes was not there to be instructed for nothing. He fought back with all the eagerness of a young pro who sees a maximum of future for himself....

...in annoyance he would punish Holmes by wrapping his arm around his head. Over the years Ali has become one of the best wrestlers in the ring....

...when they separated Holmes would go back on the attack. Toward the end of 3 rounds, Ali started stinging him with punches, Holmes stung his back."

 

The best version of most good fighters should come in such a fight (i.e. a heavyweight title eliminator) so that's nothing unusual. Holmes was also rated in the Ring's top 10 in 1975, so obviously made some impression.

 

I'm sure he believed it, especially with all the sycophants he had hanging around. Only Dr. Pacheco knew what was going on and he had already left a long time before the Holmes fight . I know someone who absolutely knew he'd lose though,,,Angelo Dundee, and he let it happen.

 

Good info DWC. Cheers.

It’s possible that Larry said he saw Ali taking shots in sparring in prep for Zaire but perhaps wasn’t necessarily referring to his own actual sessions with Muhammad.

I think I’ve seen Ali merely cover up at times sparring Larry but it’s likely that Ali was more accented lying on the ropes when sparring Bossman Jones and Roy Williams - partners who might’ve approximated more closely to how Foreman might throw them in the same scenario.

 

Err - No

 

Absolutely Pat that’s why I find it amusing when people say about Ali in the Foster fight “He was in first gear, not trying” blah blah blah…
Who the hell wants to let themselves be hit by Mac Foster? - they’re thinking, feeling humans they don’t want to be in there any longer than they have to. Any fight where Ali looked less then people imagine he was either benevolently carrying them, clowning or facing
“A champion in another era” lol.

 

The answer to your question is yes. Ali always had a strong believe in himself.

 

Yeah his coming out party was definitely vs Shavers that was the first time he'd really shown he was a bit special against a real notable opponent.

Prior to that his most notable opponents were probably Rodney Bobick, Roy Williams, and from memory Holmes didn't really stand out to me in those fights.

So whilst Holmes was ranked and had the undefeated record the Shavers fight was the one that really made people stand up and take notice of Holmes.

 

I think Larry resents that he’s never gotten his due as a great champion and fighter, and it gets the best of him sometimes.

 

Judging by the pre-fight BS I reckon Ali thought he'd iron him out. Self doubt was never a factor for Ali. Probably chalked up the galactic beating he got to a "bad night out" or "that ham I ate" because he never got the message and came back for seconds a year later against Berbick.