Do you think Frazier could have beat Vitali or Wladmir?

I'd be very comfortable with betting on Frazier to UD or possibly stop Vitali late. Vitali isn't a big enough puncher to take Frazier out early, and his lean-back defense doesn't protect the body. Vitali does have great stamina... but so does Frazer.

Wladimir, on the other hand, does have the power to stop Frazier early ala Foreman... however, I wouldn't bet on it. I'd call this one 60/40 or 65/35 for Frazier to break him down and TKO him around 9.

 

KO% doesn't mean anything when your level of comp has been as bad as Vitali's. He easily has one of the worst, if not THE worst, resumes of ATG talent. Let's examine the "noteworthy" guys that he knocked out.

Hide TKO2. Sure, a glass-jawed cruiser. good performance, but doesn't mean he's a big puncher.

Ross Purrity TKO12 Only noteworthy because Purrity stopped his brother. Purrity is a journeyman at best.

Donald TKO10. Actually a good win over a survivalist like Donald, but let's not forget that Donald was never really that good.

Johnson TKO2. Semi-impressive because of the speed of stoppage, non-impressive because Johnson came in a fatty and was never anything more than a fringe contender at best, anyways.

Sanders TKO8. Only noteworthy because Sanders stopped his brother. Sanders was also a fringe contender at best that didn't even bother to come in in shape.

Williams TKO8. Good God... Williams was in grotesque shape for this fight. Who did Williams ever beat, anyway...?

Peter RTD9. Time will tell if Peter ever amounts to another more than a crude clubber. Impressive performance, but it's tainted by the fact that Peter did not come in at his best, did not fight to win, and may not be all that good in the first place.

Vitali backers also seem to forget that he has two losses, both by stoppage. That KO percentage drops quite a bit when you include more than just the fights he won in the calculations.

 

At least you think Vitlai is an ATG then?

It took Bowe, a big puncher many more rounds.

Stopping Purrity is not easy for anyone. Just ask Wlad, Morrison, Grant, Johnson, or a host of other guys who failed to do so.

And who else stopped Donald? No one Impressive stoppage. Don’t forget Vitlai stopped Vaugh Bean too, which is something neither Holyfield or Morrer could do.

Who else stopped or even knocked down Johnson?

The same could be said for many others. Sanders was highly rated, and TKO'd.

A few guys. Look it up.

Funny. Peter tired hard in round one, and was hit hard, and systematically beaten down. BTW, Vitlai is the lone man to stop Peter.

Stoppage wins over the likes of Peter, Bean, Donald, and Purity are very impressive. These people dull KO%, not add to them.

Even with a cuts loss and an injury loss, Vitlai has the highest KO percentage of any champion in history. Vitlai was also never floored by a punch, and was the most dominant boxer on the cards I have ever seen. Even over fighters like Holmes and Ali who sometimes had their hands full vs lesser guys than the above names you mentioned. Oh-- And like Ali let's not forget Vitlai's lost some of his best years, not to politcs, but to injury which is harder to come back from.. Unlike Ali, Holmes and many others, Vitlai proved he can come back at age 37+ to win a world title belt. Sure Foreman did it, but he lost his first two chances, and needed a mircale come from behind KO to win.

Its not Vitlai's fault that Lewis or Byrd had little interest in a re-match.

 

ATG talent level, shitty resume.

If you want to play this game, some guys named Chingangu and Kulikauskas stopped Hide in 2 and 3, so they must be ATG punchers, too.

Hide is NOT a durable fighter. Besides, Bowe fought Hide when he was undefeated and totally shattered him, it's arguable that Hide was a much better fighter before Bowe got a hold of him.

I don't think Bowe is THAT big of a puncher, anyway! More of a concussive type, which, oddly enough, is exactly what I'm calling Vitali.

Purrity sucks. Regardless, it took VK eleven! rounds to stop him, hardly the mark of a "titanic ATG puncher" vs. a hopelessly outmatched opponent.

Morrison was a four round fighter even in his prime, Grant and Johnson were not that good in the first place, and certainly not impressive punchers/finishers.

Fair enough. My argument on this point was that Donald was not very good, not that he wasn't durable. Donald was 34 or 35 when he fought Vitali, too.

Have you seen Holyfield-Bean? That was one of the worst versions of Holyfield pre-2003 or so...

Anyways, Vaughn Bean was terrible. Even if he had Chuvalo-esque durability, he was nowhere near a world-class fighter.

Who else got a hold of a 260lb Johnson? Johnson was under 235 at his best.

Second point - Name me the biggest puncher Johnson fought outside of Vitali Klitschko, other than maybe Maskaev, who had a glass jaw himself and was KO'd early.

Come on. Sanders is a one-hit wonder with dubious durability at best. Nate Tubbs (who?) stopped him in two rounds and Rahman stopped him in 7, TEN and four years before Vitali knocked him out in more time (eight).

Second point - Sanders was 229 against Tubbs, 225 against Rahman, and 225 for his career highlight win over Wladimir.

He was 235 against Vitali, less than a year after the Wladimir win.

If by "a few guys" you mean Kali Meehan, Michael Sprott (who also beat him), Audley Harrison (who also KO'd him), Matt Skelton (who also beat him), wow, I'm seeing a trend here. Not impressive. Oh, but I forgot he beat a shot shot SHOT Mike Tyson when Tyson's knee blew out while he was thrashing him!

Williams was stopped both before and after the Kiltschko fights, once by Sinan Samil Sam, who is NOT a good puncher by any means.

Peter tiring hard in round one is exactly why I'm saying he was out of shape! Vitali dominated him, but let's face the facts here. Peter wasn't in his best shape and is probably not that good to begin with.

It still took Vitali a good number of rounds to stop Peter via corner intervention!!, if we're going to work this angle.

With the exception of Peter, these guys are all journeyman and, at their very BEST, extreme fringe contenders.

He also has the thinnest resume of most of the champions, too.

These are great statistics, but you keep ignoring how bad his competition was.

True, but they also beat much MUCH better guys than Vitali did.

This is misleading. Ali lost his late twenties, the true physical prime years for a speedy heavy like him. Vitali lost several years in his thirties, not as crucial, even if it was due to injuries.

Do you think Peter is that much better than prime, undefeated Michael Moorer, even at heavyweight?

Want to poll the Classic Forum on Foreman from the Moorer fight taking on Peter from the VK fight?

It's no reason to hype up his poor resume, either.

 

As much as the huge gap in size could be an asset to either Klitschko, it could also work against them.

Have either fought a guy as short as Frazier? If he comes boring in, what target does he offer? It would be difficult for the brothers to connect cleanly because Fraziers bob and weave style together with his shortness would make it very tough for a 6'6" guy to target his chin.
Wlad has no uppercut to speak of (I don't know about Vitali) so the punch most ideally suited to beating Frazier isn't there.
****, even Ali had trouble connecting sometimes and he had faster hands and better accuracy than either Klitschko.

Frazier may have difficulty reaching their chins initially, but there is always the body, and only a fool would ignore such an inviting target.
For me, both fights hinge on whether Frazier can:

a) Get inside.
b) Avoid being tied up when inside.

Regarding point A, it will be tough at first. Frazier will have to deal with those telephone pole-like jabs, never easy when you're so much shorter. Both Klitschko's have good movement and Frazier will have his work cut out. My guess is that Joe would have to try and force the fight and fight at a fast pace, putting pressure if possible on the Klits.
He must not let either dictate the pace of the fight.
The thing with these giant fighters is that invariably they slow down by about round 5, no matter how good their conditioning. They are such huge men it's impossible to fight hard without getting winded.

If Joe can get past the first few rounds without taking too much abuse, his chances of winning rise exponentially. Frazier can fight hard for 15 rounds if he has to, neither Klitschko can.

As they start to tire, Frazier will start getting inside more and more.

This brings up point B. I'd imagine both brothers are stronger than Frazier and both are well-versed in the art of tying a man up. There inevitably be several occasions when Frazier is drawn in by those long arms and negated inside.
Frazier did prove to be fairly difficult to tie up on accasions though like in the FOTC when he'd bend over and push Ali off when Muhammad attempted to tie him up.
Frazier would need to let his hands work downstairs when they attempt to tie him up.
Fighting guys much larger than himself could tire Joe out more than usual. He would need to be clever and not let the big guys use their weight against him inside. Easier said than done obviously.
If he's still there by round 7 or 8, then Joe would take more and more control of the fight.

Many people see Vitali as the tougher opponent, but I disagree. Wladimir is for my money a bigger puncher than his brother, and he had the power to take Joe out, maybe even with one bomb. He also carries his power into the late rounds, although that would also be dependant on his fatigue levels.
I also don't see Frazier smashing Wlad all over the place, despite Wlad's less than great chin. He'd need to wear Wlad down.
Vitali on the other hand is an attrition fighter, same as Joe. Sure he can hit, but I don't see him taking Joe out of there quickly. This plays right into Joe's hands. Does Vitali dare fight fire with fire?

Interesting question.

 

Let's see,

I don't get the Frazier glorification and I am actually old enough to see him fight when he was active.

Was he a good fighter , no doubt but he ain't superman. No Ali exile no Joe Frazier World champion. fact.

He is also 1 and FOUR in his signature fights, 3 by KO/Tko. That in my book is nothing to write home about, in two of his losses he was totally uncompetitive aka total blow out and if someone cries now that he was "finished" for the Foreman fights I have to kindly remind you that a totally washed up shell of a shell Tyson WON at least one round against a much more formidable opponent (Lewis) while Frazier was bounced around like a ping pong ball.

His other noteworthy opponents Quarry, Bonavena etc are roughly imo in the same league as the Sanders, Johnsons, Peter , Hide etc while even winning/carrying some ABC belts. Despite all that Frazier was knocked down or wobbled several times in his career until the Ali/Foreman fights, his chin is certainly not grade A. Fact.

Now lets go the fights, his best chance are against WK IF he jumps him early but Frazier was a relative slow starter so that theory goes out the window. I just can't see him winning a boxing contest against WK, that jackhammer jab/hook of the jab/laser straight right plus 240-250 pounds leaning and clinching on him constantly when he comes in are huge obstacles to overcome. I just don't see him walking thru the same fire Brewster went to get to WK due to his chin and size. Stylewise Tyson would be a pure nightmare for WK but Frazier ain't no Tyson not even close. I suspect he would have a hard time "smoking" while eating nonstop hardjabs and rights.

So I would make him a live underdog if the would fight straight out of a timemachine.

With all due respect, unless injuries are involved , I cannot convince myself that he has more than slim chance to succeed against the older VK. Never been down, never behind on the cards, never been seriously hurt or outboxed ever, even in his injury related losses, he is one tough son of a ***** who will give everybody in history the fight of their live. He will win and loose some but you better bring your A+ game in order to deal with him otherwise it gets ugly quick. That uppercut he took from Lewis would have sparked Frazier into the next zipcode, no way Jose would he have taken that shot.

I see this fight playing out similar than the Foreman fight, Frazier, like in the Foreman fight landing a couple of left hooks with no effect and getting hit with jabs/crosses/uppercuts , VK has another ~3-4 inches/30 pound lean muscle on Foreman so Frazier has to climb a even bigger hill.

Anything can happen in boxing but I just don't see it once one looks at it with the head not heart and leaves skin color out.

VK victim Olin Norris , certainly no Frazier , with not a lot of pop but similar boxing skills , better chin imo and close build, height and weight to Frazier could be used as a poor mans copy of the hypothetical VK/Frazier fight and the potential outcome.

 

I agree. I think many in this thread are simply thinking with their hearts, not their head. If a 250lb destructive puncher like Lewis can't move Vitali then neither can Frazier IMO. Really, Vitali should be fighting in a different weight category than Frazier - he's a much bigger man - but there isn't one. Vitali is by no means a top 10 heavyweight on accomplishments but H2H it's a far different matter. He's a live underdog and would give any fighter a real, rigorous test. Injuries are the most likely way that Fraizer would win any fight.

 

I see how this is going to go. Vitlai did not make his name on washed up older name fighters. His resume is " shitty "/ Gotcha.

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Playing the age card already? Sorry, Vitlai stopped Hide was young, and needed a lot less punches than Bowe to do it. Bowe was a big puncher.

Purrity went many rounds with Wlad, Morrison, Grant, Johnson, C. Sanders, Hipp, Gonzalez, Grant, Rhaman, Dimitrenko and others. These guys could not stop Purrity. You're so wrong, stopping Purrity is impressive. You would be hard pressed to name a fighter who fought better punchers than Purrity.

If the judges were fair, Donald beats Valuev on points. If life were fair, Donald was not stuck with Don King.

Holyfeild in 1998 had trouble with Bean. This was Holyfield pre-Ruiz, and he was not that shot. Moorer also had his hands full with Bean in 1997. However Vitlai dominated Bean, won every round besides the 9th, and became the lone man to stop Bean in 51 fights.

Johnson weight was not an issue in a short fight. Vitlai's power was. Maskeav can hit, Johnson took his stuff, then landed a counter hook for the KO. Saveresse can hit a bit too, and Johnson beat him.

Sanders nealry Ko'd the best version of Rhaman, the guy who KO'd Lewis. So Sanders lost to Tubbs. Most top ten heavies are upset. You're ingnoring Sanders win over Wlad, and string of early Ko's vs Sprott, Cole, Valdez, Deleon, Cooper, and Czyz.

I never said Williams was a top guy, I said he beat some top guys. We have seen worse get title shots as of late. For instance, SKelton and Meehan got title shots, and Williams beat them both. The thing to focus on here is how easily Vitlai wins. Again, many ATG's struggle vs tier two guys. Vitlai, because he has too much to offer does not. You fail to give credit where credit it due.

Peter was hurt, and lost heart after taking a beating, and being outclassed. Peter was not gassed late in the fight.

No, it is not misleading. The older you are, the harder the come back is. Ali was 29 when he came back, Vitlai was 37. Plus he had to over come inurty and had zero warm up fights. Again, you can't be objective. I think Peter knocks Moorer out. Moorer could not take a big punch.

 

The Klitschko's have their way with short guys for the most part. Fighters like Byrd, Bean, Norris, Peter, and Mercer come to mind. Fraizer did some bob and weave, but he was not Mike Tyson in the early rounds. When Ali jabbed he controlled the fight. When he rested on the ropes, or got caught in the corners, Frazier controlled the fight. Vitlai spends the least amount of time on the ropes or in the corners of any heavyweight champion, I have ever seen. Wlad does not hang on the ropes either. Both have high punch out put and use their legs to keep the best distance for them. Vitlai is the better in-fighter and counter puncher of the two, Wlad has better short punch power.

Vitlai uses the uppercut when it makes sense. Wlad doesn't throw the punch much.

Agreed, but even if Frazier gets inside, I think mostly dangerous when he has his man backed up on the ropes. I would add " C " has his man backed on the ropes or in the corners.

This is how I see it, though I think Frazier can keep throwing punches. Vitlai in fact throws more punches than Frazier did in most of his fights.

Unknown Vitlai seems to have enough left to score late stoppages. Same with Wlad. Their opponents all say they have top stamina. I think Vitlai could go a hard 15. Wlad, I'm not as sure of.

I think Frazier does not have a lot of functional strenght, and is easy to grab, or move around. In addition, he is giving up 40+ pounds. One point to consider, both K-Bros are smart fighters. They know Frazier has no real uppercut, jab or cross, so the defense would be shifted toward the hook.

Neither Klitschko is likely to lose a decision. They are too good to be out boxed by the likes of just about anyone. However, Wlad to me can be stopped with hard punches. Medium level punchers do not bother Wlad much, but hard one or two shot KO guys like Brewster or Sanders do. I think Sanders and Brewster are better KO artists than Frazier is and hit a tad harder. I seen Frazier unload hook after hook and grind his man down. With Sanders or Brewster it BOOM, then the KO happens. While I think Wlad hits harder than Vitlai, I think Vitlai oddly enough lands shots to the vulnerable areas, and is sneaky in terms of landing stuff through the gloves, or on the body. Frazier to me does not last the full fight is both K-bros land as often as they do. I think he needs to close the show. He can do that vs Wlad, a bit easier than Vitlai, though he might be more prone to getting bombed out vs Wlad early.

 

Isn't this one aspect of their game that they are or were notoriously unwilling to learn?

"One thing's for sure. Klitschko will fight like he always does. The man can't, and won't change. I discovered that when he parted ways with Freddie Roach after the trainer tried to show him how to clinch, when in trouble. The brothers weren't interested. Perhaps someone should have told them that if Wladimir clinched, he could have prevented his two knockout losses to lesser opposition."
http://www.britishboxing.net/news_send_358-Mission-Possible-Williams-to-topple-VK.html

They apparently used to hold the strange idea that it was inglorious and dishonourable to clinch your opponent,during a fight.

 

If Joe wins by decision, I'd imagine it would be through sheer workrate, which (against Vitali at least) is the only way he can win.

Good comments overall, Mendoza.

 

Interesting article Arka. It's certainly a noble mindset if nothing else. :good

 

Well, that's another factor. Frazier going to have a lot of trouble coming in and reaching up with those hooks, what if Wlad simply ties him up? It makes for an ugly fight, but you have to realise this: if Frazier is unable to fight on the inside because of that, he will be a sitting duck.

People say go to the body, but it's a lot easier said than done. Especially against Wladimir. His footwork is very good which makes his body very hard to reach effectively. Brock, Peter and Brewster tried and had very little success. And like Merchant said: "He doesn't have a glass body". I don't think a 240lbs man takes a better punch to the chin than a 210lbs one, but that extra mass sure helps absorbing body shots. Has anyone ever been effective by going to Wlad, Vitali, Lewis or Bowe's body's?



Two more things to take into account:

-Frazier is a good hitter but not a one-punch KO type of guy. He always has to wear his opponents down and will have to do the same here, even against Wladimir. On top of that, his hook will lose a lot of power from punching up all the way from 5'11 to a 6'7 opponent. Watch how incredibly hard it was for Tua and Tyson to connect with left hooks on Lewis, who is shorter than either Klitschko.

The referee will also play an important factor. If Wlad is allowed to hold as much as he does now (or as much as Ali was), then i have a hard time imaging Frazier getting any work done at all. If he's allowed to shove Frazier back like Foreman was, it becomes even worse news for the Philadelphian fighter.

Frazier is the greater fighter, but i think he'd struggle badly against both of them.

 

I do believe that the Klit's are underrated. I think Frazier is too.

It's a matter of size versus stamina. If Frazier gets going he could out punch and out point Vitali over 15. He could get tagged with a big shot and come undone. It's a close one.

Against Wlad he can score a KO. Frazier will still have a lot on that left hook come the championship rounds and I think he gets to Wlad.

 

1. The Superior Ali did this but still had a world of trouble against Frazier, and you think Wlad won't?

2. Frazier wouldn't just goto the body, since when have the Klits had better defenses than Ali? :roll: And Brewster and Sanders had plenty of left hand success with Wladdy

3. Firstly Frazier is a better puncher than Brewster/Sanders, secondly Frazier brings pressure and Wlad fades down the stretch, Vitali's mouth hangs open after a few rounds. The body shots from Brewster also broke Wlad down

4. Both Tyson and Tua landed left hooks and ko'd fighters ranging from 6'3-6'7 and both are shorter than Frazier. Should we take that to mean Frazier can land and KO his man?

5. Again Ali didn't have an easy time in fights 2 & 3 so Wlad and Vitali wouldn't