Do you think Juan Manuel Marquez was/is juicing?

99%? :roll: You do realize that 99% of professional boxers are literal cab drivers, part-timers who never come near making a living off pugilism alone, or regional-grade club fighters who at best sell out gymnasiums of a hundred people... The boxers you see on TV constitute a very tiny portion of the whole, and if you believe the rest can afford designer performance enhancing drugs that can bypass testing like high-paid elites can, then I've got a bridge to sell you...

Now, if you want to say most elites use (again your 99% is pretty silly to start out with, as you're then implying one high-paid elite of a hundred is clean when there aren't even a hundred of them active...) you are still likely off the mark. Boxers do get caught failing tests - including those who are politically connected. (Berto, Peterson, etc) Were it really so prevalent that nobody was clean, there would be a lot more slip-ups. Far more likely, the number of busts, even if only a tip of the iceberg of the number of guilty parties, is closer to representative of the overall distribution of cheats than "99%". It's a privileged minority.

I'd like to believe JMM isn't part of that, but as more and more circumstantial evidence and odd behavior is revealed it becomes more and more difficult to extend him the benefit of the doubt.

The assumption should not be that anyone at world championship level is juicing. Many, yes. Several times as many as get caught, unfortunately, probably yes. A number that would be really depressing for boxing fans if the full truth came out, yes. A majority? No. 99%? Absolutely nowhere even close. I don't think it's naive to say that.

Baseball fans had their illusions shattered with the doping scandal in the last couple of decades, but the end takeaway wasn't "every single pro ballplayer is on steroids". It was that a select privileged group of cheaters, mostly big name sluggers and some pitchers, had formed a boys' club that supplied and looked out for each other so they could all get away with it...until the roof caved in.

 

To me believing in athletes being clean is like believing in santa or the tooth fairy.

But yeah 99 is probably too high if you think all sports, but 99 when it comes to sports with any amount of money involved that require athletic performance its pretty clear.

Always makes me laugh that people just believe athletes are clean because "they said so" or because they are supposed to be "honoreble"

 

The only slipups that happen are people mistiming their clearance rate or they did not take the substance they thought they did.

You also underestimate just how cheap ceirtan peds are.
Sure the elite level get away with using way more.... people like Mayweather, Pac, JMM etc etc can use designer drugs.

They can use things like Andriol which is very expensive but completely undetecteble, and pharma grade HGH which the lower level fights will not be able to afford.

But even at the bottem level, ceirtan undetecteble forms of test, underground (cheap) hgh and peptides get used.
These things are cheap and mostly aid recovery.

Beating even random testing is so amazingly easy which is why there are so few busts.
It is always a slipup of the user.

You can keep believing there are clean fighters but its honestly the same as believing in santa.
Also we need to get rid of this notion of "cheats" if everyone is doing it its a level playing field.

 

this

 

:deal

Im a JMM fan, but you are right, too suspicious.

 

Yeah if not for that perfect counter, with everything clicking into place at the right moment, he was probably about to sustain his first clear loss to Pacman.

For the first time in the series, he looked overall inferior (despite, ironically, being the one to finally have his hand raised)

 

Eh...he landed versions of the counter overhand right, but never that cleanly and with such perfect collision-bound momentum (Marquez partially squatting by the ropes and Pacquiao blundering in full-tilt with his guard down) and I don't think you can really credit any PED for enhancing someone's timing and positioning. All you can really question his power, but even there it remains inconclusive because he never landed that punch quite the way he did there, with everything lining up synchronously. (whether, like Pacquiao fans, you want to attribute it to luck...or like Marquez fans, to patient and careful preparation and having studied their previous 36 rounds together with a scientific mind)

 

While i dont think he was on the way out or seriously in trouble, Juan looked slower than usual, hand and foot. If he is juiced then it didnt make him more explosive or faster. Pac gets KO'd by that same shot had it happened in any of their pervious fights also.

 

Yeah, same.

He packed on muscle (whether or not you believe it was aided by a banned substance, the fact that he pointedly caked on the beef to increase his power hoping to get a chance like he did and remove it from the judges' hands is indisputable) but at the sacrifice of a lot of his speed, which already was a disadvantaged category for him in the Pac match-up. He always had to rely on his timing in order to beat the speed, and never more so than on that night when he was at his absolute slowest. Until the KO punch, outside the earlier KD and maybe a handful of different shots, I actually thought even his timing was inferior to what it was in the first three meetings. It was there in the clutch, in the one moment he needed it, so I guess that's all that mattered to get the result. Not a terrific version of JMM overall, though. I can see why some are giving Bradley a chance.

 

And he hit Pac with that same counter a round earlier in the opposite corner, didnt load up as much though.

 

Right. :good

It wasn't the first time in 42 rounds that Marquez hit Pacquiao with a right hand, obviously. It was the first time he ever hit Pacquiao with a right hand with the entire confluence of factors present: that well-timed, that well-placed, that exacerbated by Pacquiao rushing in defenseless, that bolstered by Marquez being at his career heaviest/brawniest/brute-strongest, that intently thrown with the conviction and passion to score a knockout (with Marquez seeing Pacquiao coming and knowing the chance was there for him and having a moment to premeditate the act while loading it up and investing all his built up bitterness and righteous anger into the punch as Marquez has said he did), that helped along by Pacquiao already having been softened up not only from several big shots earlier in the night including the first knockdown but years of wear and tear in battle...

It was a perfect storm. It was the perfect shot. In 2004, 2008, and 2011 Marquez landed many shots on Pacquiao, many of them accurate, clean, and crisp - but never one that perfect with all the pieces falling into place as they did on 12/8/12.

 

If we consider the facts, I think every logical mind would come to exact same conclusion. Marquez is clean. You say being involved with Heredia is proof of illegal drug abuse, I say it's proof that he's not juicing.

In fact Hereida's involvement has nothing to do with supplying Marquez with steroids, but he's there to help Marquez understand the mind of a steroid abuser, the mind of someone with unnatural hormone levels and illicit drugs running wildly beyond the blood brain barrier, causing irreversible brain damage and anger issues making them commit adultery, being involved in illegal activities and even assault political rivalries. Even if they live in an beautiful environment, like the Philippines, to take a completely random example.

By understanding how the mind of an abuser works, and how PED's change the chemistry within the brain, Marquez is able to use his strategic mind to counter and expose the flaws of such junkies in the ring and knocking them unconscious for long periods of time.

You see, the mind of a steroid abuser is simple. Steroids cause it's abuser to be willing to take more risks, it makes the abuser inclined to believe that they are unbeatable and gives unprecedented and often misguided confidence in their own abilities. To further fuel this, steroid abuse cause irreversible and permanent damage and changes to the neurons, synapses and the protoplasmic fibers within in the brain. Forever altering the chemistry within the brain.

In layman's terms this means that cognitive function, information processing, decision making and even feelings are altered due steroid abuse. This is information Heredia has first hand experience with, and Marquez is now feasting on this invaluable information. He has already used Heredia's wisdom to defeat such a cheater, and judging by the recent HBO face-off feature, it seems Marquez is even more determined than ever and will delve even deeper into Heredia's tree of knowledge and suck every last drop of sap from his trunk.

I am convinced that Marquez, fueled with Heredia's undetectable tree milk, will sap the spririt out of Timmy and destroy him come fight night.

 

Nah just tons of pushups and Memo's secret vitamin shakes.

 

If he passes these test then I'll say no. As of right now not sure.

 

:rofl

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