Do you think technique evolves?

I’ve read this before.

It’s a fascinating read.

But even without in-depth analysis of his technique, it should be obvious to anyone that his times would have increased, had he have ran on a modern track, with modern footwear etc. Just like in the same way, that Bolt’s times would have decreased under different conditions.

Usain Bolt’s Beijing time could never have been recorded, had he have ran on a cinder track, out of Owen’s blocks, whilst wearing a pair of old ‘Chuck Taylor’ baseball shoes.

People seem to have an obsession with, and an assumption of, that everything newer is superior.

 

But you initially said ‘each generation’

Your post reads, that you are saying that each generation gets better.

In a continuous cycle.

 

Of course Maradona would be elite today.

He’d still have his incredible skill and balance.

His incredible dribbling ability.

His incredible ball control and technique.

Yes, he’d be playing against better players. But then he’d be playing on better pitches, with more protection, and with better players in better teams.

Also, he’d be forced to live a much cleaner life, if he wanted any sort of longevity. So without the drugs and the partying, a more disciplined Maradona would be even better than the one we’d seen.

But even the specific versions that we saw of him would have been elite.

Why would anyone think otherwise?

 

Usyk is unbelievably skilled.

As was Joe Louis.


That’s not the debate.

The OP is saying that each generation becomes better.

No.

They do not.

Otherwise, today’s fighters of 2024, would be noticeably better than anyone before them.


For that theory to ring true, you’d have to believe that today’s MW’s are superior to any generation before them. You’d have to believe that today’s MW’s have superior skills and technique than any group of previous MW’s.

And then the same would have to apply to every division.

So unless you think that today’s MW’s, SMW’s and WW’s etc, are better than everyone who came before them, then the theory doesn’t hold up.


Now I’ve studied the sport for over 30 years. I’ve lived through the eras. And I know that today’s group of WW’s are not superior to the group from the early 80’s, from 40 years ago. They’re also not superior to the ones from the 90’s and 00’s.

And neither are today’s MW’s and HW’s superior to the ones from the 80’s and 90’s, from 30-40 years ago.


Name me one MW today superior to Mike McCallum.

Name me a FW today superior to Sanchez and Arguello.

A JMW superior to McCallum and Hearns.

A LWW superior to Pryor.

A WW superior to Leonard.

A LHW superior to Moore and Charles.

A SMW superior to Toney.


In the majority of today’s divisions, none of the best fighters were better than the best fighters of the 80’s and 90’s.

Skills and technique peaked many moons ago.

You can’t even compare today’s MW’s with the ones from the 80’s and 90’s. They’re not even comparable, in the favour of the older generation.


Yes, many modern guys could have beaten guys of the past. But likewise, many, many guys of the past could have beaten today’s guys.

Again, there’s whole divisions today that are nowhere near as good as they once were, both in technical skills as well as depth.


The fighters do not keep evolving with each decade that goes by.

 

You’ve just said it yourself, the sport ebbs and flows.

That’s exactly right.

100%.


The sport has evolved.

Technique and skills have evolved.


But any knowledgeable fan knows that it’s not a continuous cycle, where the fighters just become more and more skilled.

Who’s going to believe that today’s 2024 fighters are the greatest fighters that we’ve ever seen.

Nobody is going to believe that.

And me and you both know that there’s many of today’s divisions that are completely inferior to many eras of the past. Both in terms of technical skills and the depth of the division.


The MW division is a very prestigious division. And whilst there’s some decent fighters today, it’s currently the weakest it’s been in a very long time.

These guys today can’t even compare technically to the guys we know of from the 80’s and 90’s. And that is a period of 30-40 years.

So it’s very simple:

The OP is wrong.


Now the MW division is just one very quick example. But if we looked at many other divisions, you’d notice the exact same thing.

So I’m not saying that there hasn’t been evolution. Only that it is not continuous, where each newer generation is better than the one before it.

That’s completely nonsensical.

 

Yeah but the techniques are there for those that want them. The very best guys right now are as good as anybody. The difference is that right now a lot of the divisions are soft other than the elite guys.

 

You’re taking a handful of fighters to try and prove your point.

But you can’t do that.

Because I can just counter your examples, by listing 5 older generation fighters who I believe were by far superior to 5 modern day ones.

And then you can return fire with some more examples, before I then come back at you and do the same.

And we can have a back and forth like that for hours, like a huge rally in tennis.


Now I understand what you’re trying to say.

But your theory doesn’t hold up to scrutiny, when we look at the bigger picture.


Now you need to either rephrase what you’ve written, or try and prove that you are right.

Because as it stands, it’s very easy for me to prove that each newer generation DOES NOT become more skilled and advanced than the generation of fighters that came before them.


Again, you are looking at a few individual cases like Loma and GGG.

But look at the bigger picture.

Look at a bigger pool of fighters, across more weight divisions, over many eras.

Then we’ll clearly see if your theory holds up.


Now you think that GGG is the most skilled MW of all time.

Okay. That’s cool. But I personally don’t think he was technically more skilled than McCallum or Toney.

I personally don’t think that Bivol or Beterbiev are technically superior to Archie Moore.


You have your opinions.

I have mine.

It doesn’t matter.


The proof is looking at the bigger picture, from today in 2024.


You said “Each generation becomes better and more skilled”

You didn’t say a few guys.

You said each generation.


So let’s look from things as they are right now, in 2024.


Now for your theory to be true, then using your logic, today’s 2024 fighters would have to be the best fighters of all time, and very noticeably so.

Yet we know that can’t possibly be true.

Because for that statement to ring true, you would have to believe that today’s MW’s are the best MW’s of all time.

You’d have to believe that today’s best WW’s are the best group of WW’s of all time.

You’d have to believe that today’s group of SMW’s are the best group of SMW’s of all time.

Then so on an so forth, for each division.

And that is what you’d have to believe for your statement to ring true.

For your statement to ring true, there couldn’t be any anomalies. No exceptions.


Yet nobody is going to agree with that.

Simply because there’s many fighters and divisions today, that are simply technically inferior to many from the past.


You have also made huge assumptions:

You are assuming that the newer generation of fighters will be better.

You have said that each generation learns from the previous ones, where they can study technique, and make it even better. Where trainers can teach those skills, to make each newer generation even more advanced than the previous ones.


Well then here’s 2 questions for you:

1. How can you just assume that the next generation will be better, when currently, we have a huge number of divisions who are inferior to many divisions from previous eras?

2. How can you just automatically assume that these trainers and fighters will study and improve upon the techniques of the past, due to having easy access to them, when we know that this has not always happened?


There’s been some great trainers of the most recent past.

There’s some great trainers around today.

There’s also been access to quality fight footage from the last 30 years ago.

There’s been access to superior training facilities, as well as PEDS.

There’s been access to sports science and nutrition.

Yet despite everything written above, there’s no MW today who’s superior to the best MW’s of over 30-40 years ago.

Today’s best MW’s aren’t as skilled as those MW’s before them.


So you cannot just assume that the next generation of guys will be superior than today’s guys, just because they have things at their disposal what would be advantageous to them if they were analysed etc.

Now I just used the MW division as a quick example. But we can discuss other weight classes if you wish.


Now if you’ve watched the sport for as long as I have, you’d know that there’s great fighters in every era.

You’d also realise that the sport just simply ebbs and flows.

Sometimes the divisions are hot, where they’re packed full of talented fighters with great depth. And sometimes they’re average, and sometimes they’re weak.

Now that has happened over the last 3 decades that I’ve watched, to the point where nobody knows what the next generation of MW’s or WW’s will look like, in say 20 years time.

Now when that time comes, they may be the greatest MW’s and WW’s that we’ve ever seen. But likewise, the divisions maybe weak and devoid of any true ATG talent. But the point is, you cannot assume that they’re going to definitely be great. Why? Because once again:

1. History has proven otherwise.

2. There is ZERO EVIDENCE to say that each generation becomes better than the previous ones.


The sport does not keep progressing in a continuous cycle.

 

But what does this mean exactly?

The techniques are there for those that want them?


The techniques have been there for decades.

There are only so many techniques and punches to master.


There has been no new techniques/punches in decades and decades.

No new significant rule changes in decades.

No different footwear or gloves for decades.


The data/footage of those guys from the past is available for anybody to study.


No, the very best guys around today, are not as good as anybody.

That’s the point.


And a lot of the divisions are currently weak/soft, because the fighters are lesser fighters than what we’ve seen in the past.

This is the whole point I’m making.


We can clearly see that each newer generation does’t become better. Because it that was really true, then each fighter and each division would be great.

Yet it’s not.


You’ve already nailed it:

It ebbs and flows.

And it’s done that for years.


So: Neither me, you or any other poster can possibly know how good the next generation of WW’s, MW’s and LHW’s are going to be.

There is simply zero evidence for anyone to claim that they’ll all definitely be great.

We’ll simply have to wait and see. Because the sport’s history has proven to us all over decades, that assumptions simply cannot be made.

 

1. This hasn’t addressed any of what I’ve written.

2. It’s nothing to do with being nostalgic. It’s just logic and common sense.

3. You haven’t as yet backed up your theory at all.

4. I have disproven your theory, simply by noting that today’s guys aren’t all superior to their predecessors.

5. I’ve already said that looking at the big picture, is better than just throwing names around in a tennis like rally.


Now regarding the names above, I’m familiar with of all of them. I’m a fan of many.

However, if you truly believe that those fighters are the best of all time in those weight classes, then I’m completely baffled.


Beterbiev isn’t superior to Archie Moore.

How is Janibek superior to McCallum and Toney?

Tim is superior to McCallum?

Manny was a genius. But he wasn’t prime at WW, or as skilled as guys like Leonard, Robinson and Pea.

Lopez isn’t more skilled than Pryor.

Loma is exceptionally skilled, but so were Pea and Duran.

Nick Ball? Are you serious? What about guys like Arguello and Sanchez etc?


That’s a poor list.

And that isn’t in any way helping you in your quest to prove that each newer generation is superior to the ones before.

 

I see fighters that fight differently to what was common in the past. There's the EE style with the emphasis on range control. There's the Ukrainian style with an emphasis on footwork and lateral movement. Sure, you could pick out a few isolated fighters that could do this in the past. But they were generally the elite, whereas nowadays the elite techniques have become commonplace. I think that the eyetest can show us that the elite nowadays are as good as anybody. That said, I also agree with you when you say its a matter of opinion. It's impossible to compare across the years because boxing isn't a measured contest like sprints or javelin throwing.

 

I find Beterbiev’s defense to be too poor for me to pick him as this era’s best LHW technician. His reliance on padding for protection would’ve gotten him killed back in the day, even if his offense is wonderful.

 

But you’re talking more about different styles here.

Exceptionally skilled fighters, with great technique, using their own styles.

There’s always been elite technicians.

Chess masters.

Yes, the P4P top 10 are great, where they could match up with many of the past greats.

The sport is in a great place with guys like Crawford, Loma and Usyk etc.

There’s a lot to be thankful for.

But it doesn’t change what I said earlier.

Each new generation of fighters are not better than their predecessors.

The sport does not progress in that manner.

Again, if it did, then a division like the MW division, would not be noticeably inferior to what it was 30-40 years ago. And neither would many of the other divisions too.