Does Any Pre Ali Heavyweight Beat Ali?

Which is why I give Dempsey the best chance. I am not as enamored with the 64-67 Ali as are some. I think he was a better fighter in the 70's, not as flashy, not the same dancer but as a fighter, yes, better. I don't judge on flash and dancing is a pastime for others, doesn't figure on my card.

 

Sonny Liston when he was on the rise perhaps. The version that was hungry for the title and didn't live in Las Veghias. 1959-60.

Ali probably goes the distance with him at least. Can't think of anyone to better to send in there.

 

In practical terms, no time was bought between rounds 4 and 5, it there was a scant extra 4 secs atop the standard 1 min rest period I believe - and that “delay” is probably more common than you think in normal, as you go fights.

And no, Ali was not led or assisted back to his corner at the bell ending round 4, he got back under his own steam.

 

Nope ,the time delay is vastly exaggerated, and that was not a prime Ali.

 

Prime McCoy was a super middleweight,knocked out by 172lbs Sharkey,175lbs McCormick. and floored 7 times by 168lbsRoot.

 

Liston, good call. Louis always jumps to my mind immediately. I think Joe’s chances are underrated by the majority.

Prime Liston would do so much better than he actually did but I would say Ali would still be the more likely winner just imo.

 

This thread specifies prime for prime.
Granted it still would've taken a fellow ATG to beat even FOTC Ali, but quite a few people could've replicated Norton's victory over that Ali.

 

In a heavyweight tournament with expert predictions, Liston and Ali were the two finalists. Here's an analysis I really liked.

Moontan, boxing expert at Heavyweightaction.com

A very interesting matchup for the finals, it’s a rematch of their 1964 heavyweight title fight. Neither fighter was really challenged coming through the tournament which is also surprising. What would be different this time as compared to their first match-up between the two greats”. First off I think a younger Liston would have been a much better opponent for Ali this time around and Liston would not be the overwhelming favorite as in the first fight. I see Liston showing much more respect for Ali throughout the fighting and pacing himself much better and also he would be much more prepared both physically and mentally for this fight. Whether he would let Ali get inside his head in this fight like he did the first time remains to be seen. I see a truly a great fight with Ali hitting the canvas and Ali winning a very close decision because of his speed and athletic ability. Liston stays upright the entire fight but his face shows the ware of Ali’s punches.

Wepner, and Terrell have both stated they don't think anyone beats a prime Liston including Ali.

Can't find the quote at the moment but Steward also said if Ali fought the prime Liston in the late 50s, Liston might've won.

Ali himself also stated a prime Liston would've given him one of his greatest battles, and even their first fight was one of Ali's toughest (even aside from the whole 5th round).

 

Frazier bothered Ali the most. It would have to be a boxer with the attributes of Frazier.

 

Gene tunney maybe

 

Norton maybe even more so

 

The ones with the best chance if we’re talking quality and stylistically are Walcott, Marciano and Louis, Walcott because he’s very tricky, 60s Ali could be set up for punches because he relied on reflexes, he could often get caught pulling away, 70s Ali was more experienced and threw less blind punches.
The subtle movements Walcott did to set up punches, 60s Ali may fall for, such as if Walcott feinted or jabbed and moved to the right simultaneously to get Ali to commit then Walcott may come with the right, I saw Walcott do that a few time.
Marciano simply because of his durability combined with his endless stamina and his power, I don’t think Ali would be able to make Marciano respect him and to lower Marciano’s volume, people may say that he’s too small, but Doug Jones rocked Ali big time, Ali could move for a bit, but he’s not gonna be able to move for the whole fight at the same level, he’d slow down since Marciano would be constantly pressuring him, yes he’d get schooled for the first half, but Marciano would still be forcing Ali to work more than he wants to and moving excessively, he wouldn’t be able to control him the way Klitschko controlled his opponents, by keeping it at his own pace, since Marciano wouldn’t respect Ali, he’d start to slow and Marciano wouldn’t be discouraged, he may start to give Ali he late on. If Ali gets away with excessive clinching like the Frazier rematch, then he could win comfortably, but if he doesn’t, Marciano will give him hell late on and Ali may end up having points deducted for holding.
Joe Louis, he’s not as good at pressuring, closing the ring off and forcing opponents to work as good as Marciano did, he would g close the ring off very often against Ali, which would mean Ali could get away with less volume since he could outbox him in the middle, when you get forces close to the ropes constantly ropes, that’s when you have to find a way out, that’s more draining physically and mentally since you can’t catch a break, you have to be elusive constantly, but to be fair to Louis, on his day, he was underrated against movers, he destroyed Conn in the rematch and stopped Walcott and did close the ring off against Walcott quite well, and if he closed to ring off against Ali, he’d be more effective than Marciano since he selected his punches better, so if he pinned him down, he could land some devastating combinations, it’s whether he could do it often enough.
Those 3 have a decent chance of getting a result, not that I’d pick them, but if they were to win a fight in a series of 3, it wouldn’t surprise me.
The rest don’t have much of a chance and I’ll explain why.
Dempsey was too wild and Ali would see everything coming and didn’t have the constant workrate to force also to work more than he wants to.
Ezzard Charles could be competitive, but I don’t see him having a considerable chance of beating him, he could stun Ali with that counter check-left hook or with some other counters in combinations if Ali threw something blind, Ezzard Charles could be sneaking with counters, but not as much as Walcott and he wasn’t as deceptive with his footwork or subtle movement as Walcott.
Tunney, he doesn’t have fight ending power or enough to really hurt Ali, he’s primarily a boxer and with Ali’s reach, speed and ability, he’d just be stuck on the end of the punches, he also doesn’t have sneaky counters or deceptiveness to draw Ali on.
Jack Johnson was far too primitive, if you mean Harold Johnson (which I very much doubt you do) but I actually think he could pose some technical problems and make the fight competitive early on, he had a decent jab and counters, but the fight likely ends up too much and he ends up getting overwhelmed and stopped or just loses on points in a fight that is competitive and interesting for a while.

 

I read that also but it also said he fought at heavy wight at one point.

 

That was interesting. Thanks for sharing Swag.

Liston really hit his stride in 59/60.

Excellent point also re Liston not being complacent or unrealistically applied if fighting a prime, established Ali - a very much known quantity for which Liston would show far greater respect.

In 64 Liston focused and trained for a fight that he thought would only be about 2-5 rounds.

Let’s say Liston went in with that same mindset and prep against Machen in 1960.

Even though it was a prime Liston, the same attitude and prep he took into Miami would’ve made his fight against Eddie that much harder.

As it actually was against Machen - Liston was patient and beautifully paced - he had absolutely no problem going 12 rounds whilst maintaining a very good output.

 

I agree. Throwing more punches in the 12th than he did in the first. Excellent endurance.

I think Liston's jab, output, and ring IQ would cause Ali problems. He caused Ali enough problems in the early rounds in their first fight before tiring. He hurt Ali with a right to the stomach in the first and cornered and hurt Ali with a huge left hook in the second (Ali admitted as such). Also did an excellent job timing Ali's jab's and slipped them with little wasted motion.

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The fact that this version of Liston was able to corner Ali, and slip his punches efficiently (before he tired of course) leads me to believe he could've done the same with even more success in his prime.

Ali still most likely wins, but he's gonna have to get off the canvas and go the distance, imo.